Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
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21-10-2013, 07:05 PM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2013 08:22 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(21-10-2013 02:42 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(17-10-2013 01:02 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  No. The link to my salvation thread has been offered many times. You were too busy trolling to click on it.

There are 109 HB verses that use salvation. Why would I read your refutation proving the concept is non-existent? Obviously, that's why you can't be bothered to post it here...

I never said it was "non-existent". I said it was not an Hebraic idea.
Go check out Martin Buber's, the Jewish Talmud scholar/Philosopher's Good and Evil, and read Part II, (and PLEASE Jebus, DON"T start telling me I am a Jew.)
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topi.../salvation

It makes no difference how many times it's "mentioned" *somewhere* in the Babble. The concept is essentially non-Hebraic. Saul of Tarsus imported it, when he cooked up your beligion. Nice try at dodging the problem. Every cult puts their own little twist on things. Salvation had no part of the Hebrew world-view. It would have made no sense, as they didn't believe in a "fall", or even immortality. We've been over this. I think you do have the big "D". And BTW, James contradicted that, and insisted it was by "works".

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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22-10-2013, 02:07 PM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(21-10-2013 07:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(21-10-2013 02:42 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  There are 109 HB verses that use salvation. Why would I read your refutation proving the concept is non-existent? Obviously, that's why you can't be bothered to post it here...

I never said it was "non-existent". I said it was not an Hebraic idea.
Go check out Martin Buber's, the Jewish Talmud scholar/Philosopher's Good and Evil, and read Part II, (and PLEASE Jebus, DON"T start telling me I am a Jew.)
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topi.../salvation

It makes no difference how many times it's "mentioned" *somewhere* in the Babble. The concept is essentially non-Hebraic. Saul of Tarsus imported it, when he cooked up your beligion. Nice try at dodging the problem. Every cult puts their own little twist on things. Salvation had no part of the Hebrew world-view. It would have made no sense, as they didn't believe in a "fall", or even immortality. We've been over this. I think you do have the big "D". And BTW, James contradicted that, and insisted it was by "works".

I am fully aware that individual salvation is mythic to modern Judaism and weaves in (and out!) of Talmudic volumes.

It was, however, a bedrock principle of the Pharisees who were Jesus's contemporaries. It was in the HB which according to you was written very close to Jesus's time making in Hebraic in origin.

I don't know how you can bring up the NT and say "The salvation there is Paul's invention" when it is part and parcel of the HB--my point exactly and not "salvation is in the NT". The argument, by the way, that Paul made up doctrines, falls apart by merely looking at the HB foundation on which ALL of Paul's doctrines rest(s).

If you want to rephrase your argument as "Jews who believe in Talmud above scripture also don't believe in individual salvation" you have something there we both already knew. But don't try for a minute to say that because unbelieving (in Messiah/Jesus) Jews don't want salvation to be part of the Hebraic thoughts of the ancient world makes it so.

However, the more religious a Jewish person is, the more likely they emphasize the Messianic expectations of their faith. The Messiah is the Savior.

I do apologize, as an aside, that you neither understand James 2 (saying it's by works from James 2 is a failing of Catholicism, Mormons and JW's, to name a few) and that you did not have the privilege of being born Jewish.
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22-10-2013, 02:19 PM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(22-10-2013 02:07 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  If you want to rephrase your argument as "Jews who believe in Talmud above scripture also don't believe in individual salvation" you have something there we both already knew. But don't try for a minute to say that because unbelieving (in Messiah/Jesus) Jews don't want salvation to be part of the Hebraic thoughts of the ancient world makes it so.

However, the more religious a Jewish person is, the more likely they emphasize the Messianic expectations of their faith. The Messiah is the Savior.

Prove it. You have a PleasyJebus religion "scale" ? Let's see the study.
What exactly would "salvation" mean to people who didn't believe in immortality ?

(22-10-2013 02:07 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  The Messiah is the Savior.

Nope.
That assertion is worth as much as :

The moon is made of green cheese.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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22-10-2013, 02:37 PM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(22-10-2013 02:19 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(22-10-2013 02:07 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  If you want to rephrase your argument as "Jews who believe in Talmud above scripture also don't believe in individual salvation" you have something there we both already knew. But don't try for a minute to say that because unbelieving (in Messiah/Jesus) Jews don't want salvation to be part of the Hebraic thoughts of the ancient world makes it so.

However, the more religious a Jewish person is, the more likely they emphasize the Messianic expectations of their faith. The Messiah is the Savior.

Prove it. You have a PleasyJebus religion "scale" ? Let's see the study.
What exactly would "salvation" mean to people who didn't believe in immortality ?

(22-10-2013 02:07 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  The Messiah is the Savior.

Nope.
That assertion is worth as much as :

The moon is made of green cheese.

Are you familar with Chasidic Judaism? Do you know why exact duplicates of Menachem Schneerson's home were built all over the world?

We're talking about a large (and growing!) sect of ultra-religious Jews looking for a Messiah. That's now...

...The most religious Jews of the ancient times were the Pharisees. Their expectation was likewise Messianic. They took the HB more literally than the Saducees as you know.

Ancient expectation, and modern.
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22-10-2013, 06:04 PM (This post was last modified: 22-10-2013 07:29 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(22-10-2013 02:37 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(22-10-2013 02:19 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Prove it. You have a PleasyJebus religion "scale" ? Let's see the study.
What exactly would "salvation" mean to people who didn't believe in immortality ?


Nope.
That assertion is worth as much as :

The moon is made of green cheese.

Are you familar with Chasidic Judaism? Do you know why exact duplicates of Menachem Schneerson's home were built all over the world?

We're talking about a large (and growing!) sect of ultra-religious Jews looking for a Messiah. That's now...

...The most religious Jews of the ancient times were the Pharisees. Their expectation was likewise Messianic. They took the HB more literally than the Saducees as you know.

Ancient expectation, and modern.

Exactly. But NOTHING from the actual period during which your OT Babble and your sooth-saying (prophesies) were written. (BTW, provide ONE scholarly link to you nonsense of "sooth"-saying.

How exactly did you make the determination who "was *most* religious" ? Your PleasyJebus meter ?
No salvation pre-apocalytic period. The POINT was the idea did not originate with your cult, and is essentially non-Biblical. The Biblical texts were mostly completed by your time line, so thanks for agreeing with me. You seem to be unable to follow an argument. The subject is not "modern". The Pharisees are irrelevant.
"Pharisees were at various times a political party, a social movement, and a school of thought among Jews during the Second Temple period beginning under the Hasmonean dynasty (140–37 BCE) in the wake of the Maccabean Revolt." - Wiki
Are you REALLY that desperate ?

Wiki - " Divination (from Latin divinare "to foresee, to be inspired by a god", related to divinus, divine) is the attempt to gain insight into a question or situation by way of an occultic, standardized process or ritual.[3] Used in various forms throughout history, diviners ascertain their interpretations of how a querent should proceed by reading signs, events, or omens, or through alleged contact with a supernatural agency.

Deuteronomy 18:9-12 ESV
“When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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22-10-2013, 07:08 PM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
Hard to believe this thread is still going on given the low-level of theists posting.

One would think they would have left in shame by now.

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23-10-2013, 10:50 AM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(22-10-2013 06:04 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(22-10-2013 02:37 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Are you familar with Chasidic Judaism? Do you know why exact duplicates of Menachem Schneerson's home were built all over the world?

We're talking about a large (and growing!) sect of ultra-religious Jews looking for a Messiah. That's now...

...The most religious Jews of the ancient times were the Pharisees. Their expectation was likewise Messianic. They took the HB more literally than the Saducees as you know.

Ancient expectation, and modern.

Exactly. But NOTHING from the actual period during which your OT Babble and your sooth-saying (prophesies) were written. (BTW, provide ONE scholarly link to you nonsense of "sooth"-saying.

How exactly did you make the determination who "was *most* religious" ? Your PleasyJebus meter ?
No salvation pre-apocalytic period. The POINT was the idea did not originate with your cult, and is essentially non-Biblical. The Biblical texts were mostly completed by your time line, so thanks for agreeing with me. You seem to be unable to follow an argument. The subject is not "modern". The Pharisees are irrelevant.
"Pharisees were at various times a political party, a social movement, and a school of thought among Jews during the Second Temple period beginning under the Hasmonean dynasty (140–37 BCE) in the wake of the Maccabean Revolt." - Wiki
Are you REALLY that desperate ?

Wiki - " Divination (from Latin divinare "to foresee, to be inspired by a god", related to divinus, divine) is the attempt to gain insight into a question or situation by way of an occultic, standardized process or ritual.[3] Used in various forms throughout history, diviners ascertain their interpretations of how a querent should proceed by reading signs, events, or omens, or through alleged contact with a supernatural agency.

Deuteronomy 18:9-12 ESV
“When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

You are attempting to obfuscate my refutation of your point. Salvation as an individual is certainly Hebraic and underscored the Pharisaical system. If you persist, I'll remind you that there were reasons all the people were attempting to follow Torah Law AND Pharisaical practice AND confessing their "sins" on Yom Kippur to "be written in the book of life" and so on.

qesem in Deut 18 can be taken as ill divination, since it is used for good and bad alike:

I.divination, witchcraft
A.
of the nations, Balaam

B.
of false prophets

C.
in a good sense (king's lips as oracles)

You always "forget" to mention verse 14: "The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination." Was it sorcery when Moses parted the sea or made the Nile blood?

Your point is moot.
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23-10-2013, 11:09 AM (This post was last modified: 23-10-2013 12:44 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(23-10-2013 10:50 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You are attempting to obfuscate my refutation of your point. Salvation as an individual is certainly Hebraic and underscored the Pharisaical system. If you persist, I'll remind you that there were reasons all the people were attempting to follow Torah Law AND Pharisaical practice AND confessing their "sins" on Yom Kippur to "be written in the book of life" and so on.

It's irrelevant what was imported THAT LATE, into the culture AFTER the OT was essentially completed. You ignore that the Pharisaical system developed in the apocalyptic period. You are intellectually dishonest. You say the prophets predicted events concerning "salvation", and now you're try to justify the entire bs by confusing a concept you justify with use from a group (the Pharasees) that arose and was active, LONG AFTER the "prophesies" were made. Fail.

(23-10-2013 10:50 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Was it sorcery when Moses parted the sea or made the Nile blood?
Your point is moot.

Not because you attempt to dismiss it. You NEED to have it be "moot", (and it is NOT, as any Freshman Biblical Studies student knows), because your entire edifice of crap is BUILT on the sands of the false notion of "prophesy as fortune-telling". Moses parting the Reed Sea is irrelevant to the discussion of "prediction" of the future. Fail again. Everything you've said just confirms what I originally wrote :
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid257278

No pamphlets to write today ? Tongue

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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23-10-2013, 02:30 PM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(23-10-2013 11:09 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-10-2013 10:50 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You are attempting to obfuscate my refutation of your point. Salvation as an individual is certainly Hebraic and underscored the Pharisaical system. If you persist, I'll remind you that there were reasons all the people were attempting to follow Torah Law AND Pharisaical practice AND confessing their "sins" on Yom Kippur to "be written in the book of life" and so on.

It's irrelevant what was imported THAT LATE, into the culture AFTER the OT was essentially completed. You ignore that the Pharisaical system developed in the apocalyptic period. You are intellectually dishonest. You say the prophets predicted events concerning "salvation", and now you're try to justify the entire bs by confusing a concept you justify with use from a group (the Pharasees) that arose and was active, LONG AFTER the "prophesies" were made. Fail.

(23-10-2013 10:50 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Was it sorcery when Moses parted the sea or made the Nile blood?
Your point is moot.

Not because you attempt to dismiss it. You NEED to have it be "moot", (and it is NOT, as any Freshman Biblical Studies student knows), because your entire edifice of crap is BUILT on the sands of the false notion of "prophesy as fortune-telling". Moses parting the Reed Sea is irrelevant to the discussion of "prediction" of the future. Fail again. Everything you've said just confirms what I originally wrote :
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid257278

No pamphlets to write today ? Tongue

You really are talking to yourself now, and not addressing what I wrote, so let me help you refocus:

You have one or two misapplied verses "proving" that prophecy was forbidden to the writers of the HB. How about the other 1,000 verses or so that say, "HEAR NOW THE WORD OF THE LORD, WHEN IN THE FUTURE I..."?

I'll repeat, it's not a "fundamentalist" belief that the HB is filled with prophecy, rather, it's an argument between scholars (and between lay readers) as to which prophecies were fulfilled, whether the prophecies are vague, etc.
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23-10-2013, 06:07 PM (This post was last modified: 24-10-2013 02:40 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(23-10-2013 02:30 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(23-10-2013 11:09 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It's irrelevant what was imported THAT LATE, into the culture AFTER the OT was essentially completed. You ignore that the Pharisaical system developed in the apocalyptic period. You are intellectually dishonest. You say the prophets predicted events concerning "salvation", and now you're try to justify the entire bs by confusing a concept you justify with use from a group (the Pharisees) that arose and was active, LONG AFTER the "prophesies" were made. Fail.


Not because you attempt to dismiss it. You NEED to have it be "moot", (and it is NOT, as any Freshman Biblical Studies student knows), because your entire edifice of crap is BUILT on the sands of the false notion of "prophesy as fortune-telling". Moses parting the Reed Sea is irrelevant to the discussion of "prediction" of the future. Fail again. Everything you've said just confirms what I originally wrote :
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid257278

No pamphlets to write today ? Tongue

You really are talking to yourself now, and not addressing what I wrote, so let me help you refocus:

You have one or two misapplied verses "proving" that prophecy was forbidden to the writers of the HB. How about the other 1,000 verses or so that say, "HEAR NOW THE WORD OF THE LORD, WHEN IN THE FUTURE I..."?

I'll repeat, it's not a "fundamentalist" belief that the HB is filled with prophecy, rather, it's an argument between scholars (and between lay readers) as to which prophecies were fulfilled, whether the prophecies are vague, etc.

You will never get it. "Advice" concerning what the adviser (prophet) thinks is best, or a possible outcome MAY happen, or what she/he thinks may result is not "prediction",
and thus cannot be used as "proofs" the the prediction was divinely "inspired", or lends authority to something. It IS a fundi belief. Maybe in your weird little fundie parochial world, prophesy is used that way, it is NOT in mainline scholarship, or churches. Just more proof of the little insular world you were trained in, live in, and write in. I do realize it's a stupid common little street level game you fundies play. Real scholars do NOT bother with that nonsense.
The gift of prophecy edifies, exhorts, and comforts (I Corinthians 14:3); helps us build up or strengthen; and should lead us to the Word of God. It is the ministry of the Holy Spirit to convict of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment to come (John 16:8-11).

"Prophecy is not prediction..People think that "prophecy" means to predict (foretell) what will happen in the future. Actually, the simple gift of prophecy is essentially forthtelling; it is a ministry to make people better and more useful Christians now. Prophecy in the New Testament church carries no prediction with it whatsoever, for "he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort" (I Corinthians 14:3). Notice that there is no mention of the word prediction here.
The gift of prophecy edifies, exhorts, and comforts (I Corinthians 14:3); helps us build up or strengthen; and should lead us to the Word of God. It is the ministry of the Holy Spirit to convict of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. o come (John 16:8-11)."

Nothing about prediction. Apparently you think you know more than your "hb".
http://catholic-resources.org/Bible/Prophecy.htm
From the above article:
"Contrary to what many fundamentalist preachers or late-night radio hosts would have you believe, biblical prophecy is not primarily about "predicting the future" or finding clues in the Bible that correspond to people or events in our own day and age! The prophets of Ancient Israel did not look into some kind of crystal ball and see events happening thousands of years after their own lifetimes. The books they wrote do not contain hidden coded messages for people living in the 20th or 21st centuries!

Rather, biblical prophets were mainly speaking to and writing for the people of their own time. They were challenging people of their own world, especially their political rulers, to remain faithful to God's commandments and/or to repent and turn back to God if they had strayed. They were conveying messages from God, who had called or commissioned them, rather than speaking on their own initiative or authority. However, because the biblical prophets were transmitting messages on behalf of God (as Jews and Christians believe), much of what they wrote for their own time is clearly also relevant for people living in the modern world. The overall message of faith and repentance is timeless and applicable in all ages and cultures.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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