Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
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31-10-2013, 05:43 PM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
The thing about prophecy or predictions is that they would always have to be taken into consideration AFTER they happen. They are just interpretations, whatever people can try to make an event fit. Its like trying to put a triangular puzzle block in a circular hole with a mallet.

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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31-10-2013, 07:11 PM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(31-10-2013 05:43 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  The thing about prophecy or predictions is that they would always have to be taken into consideration AFTER they happen. They are just interpretations, whatever people can try to make an event fit. Its like trying to put a triangular puzzle block in a circular hole with a mallet.

Everything you need to know about prophecies:



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31-10-2013, 08:11 PM (This post was last modified: 31-10-2013 09:03 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(31-10-2013 10:25 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(30-10-2013 03:31 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You know what they say about "no stupid questions".
Well, they were wrong. Weeping

Calling my brilliant, inspired questions "stupid" neither refutes my position nor wins the debate by fiat. Epic fail, again. Can I pay you money to debate me in person in public. PLEASE?!

Nope. Not for sale. Debates are no way to discover things.
Calling your own questions "brilliant" and "inspired" makes you look rather conceited.
The fact is, mainstream Biblical scholarship does not waste it's time with this nonsense of "proofs by fulfillment" which you have been trying to sell here, since you got here.
You have never presented ONE academic, or any other paper here, or linked us to anything you've written on any topic, nor have you ever refuted any point I've ever made here with respect to the misunderstanding of "prophesy" by fundies, and Biblical literalists.
http://sophia.smith.edu/~jkaminsk/213a.html
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articl...d-prophecy
http://www.x-konsult.se/academia/Essaytheol6.htm
http://suneeshjohnson.hubpages.com/hub/p...olsinBible

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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04-11-2013, 03:11 PM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(31-10-2013 05:43 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  The thing about prophecy or predictions is that they would always have to be taken into consideration AFTER they happen. They are just interpretations, whatever people can try to make an event fit. Its like trying to put a triangular puzzle block in a circular hole with a mallet.

Is that a question or a rhetorical circular argument you've made? "No one can know if a prophecy has happened until if and when it comes to pass, so they cannot be true."

Some of the prophecies Jesus fulfilled in His first advent:

*Wrists and feet pierced

*Beaten on the face, His beard plucked

*Born in Bethlehem

*Worshipped by Gentiles around the world

*Would be rejected by Jews, who in turn would be in diaspora and return to Israel after millennia

Yes, they are "just interpretations" as you wrote. Are the interpretations a) right? b) wrong?
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05-11-2013, 01:33 PM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(31-10-2013 08:11 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(31-10-2013 10:25 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Calling my brilliant, inspired questions "stupid" neither refutes my position nor wins the debate by fiat. Epic fail, again. Can I pay you money to debate me in person in public. PLEASE?!

Nope. Not for sale. Debates are no way to discover things.
Calling your own questions "brilliant" and "inspired" makes you look rather conceited.
The fact is, mainstream Biblical scholarship does not waste it's time with this nonsense of "proofs by fulfillment" which you have been trying to sell here, since you got here.
You have never presented ONE academic, or any other paper here, or linked us to anything you've written on any topic, nor have you ever refuted any point I've ever made here with respect to the misunderstanding of "prophesy" by fundies, and Biblical literalists.
http://sophia.smith.edu/~jkaminsk/213a.html
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articl...d-prophecy
http://www.x-konsult.se/academia/Essaytheol6.htm
http://suneeshjohnson.hubpages.com/hub/p...olsinBible

What am I refuting? Do I need to refute that the moon isn't made of green cheese, too?

Mainline scholars theorize that the prophets were social and religious agitators who were goading people to action in present tense.

You have not offered one piece of evidence refuting the several thousand statements in both testaments that are offered in future tense. A five-year-old child can understand God's comments that "Unless you people do X, Y will occur in the future."

If a five-year-old is wiser than a Ph.D, what am I supposed to say that will convince you? Are you as wise as a child, and have hope of Heaven, or as dumb as an immovable rock, and therefore perfect to hold tenure in a secular religion college?

Take this for example from 2 Chronicles 7:

When I shut up heaven and there is no rain, or command the locusts to devour the land, or send pestilence among My people, 14 if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land. 15 Now My eyes will be open and My ears attentive to prayer made in this place.

Around eighth grade, we both learned to recognize the above language of If... then statements. The verses above read: "When I... if... then... I will... now I will listen to see if you pray."

Please explain how all this if... then language is all not a true statement of any future-telling but an encouragement to the contemporaries who heard it. And if so, why did they write it down and "Teach it their children" and "Bind it on their hands and foreheads and the walls of their homes".
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05-11-2013, 01:59 PM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(05-11-2013 01:33 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  as dumb as an immovable rock, and therefore perfect to hold tenure in a secular religion college?

Yet YOU brag that YOU graduated from one. Most mainline RELIGIOUS supported, (but non-fundie) schools, do not care. All they care about is the authentic scholarship. Fundie-literalist "prophecy" using past verses to "prove" as authentic, something from the past IS NOT authentic scholarship, as I have shown in the links, and which you have not even addressed once. There is NOTHING you can do to convince me. It's a crackpot, "WAY out in left field" notion, only held by those ignorant of real scholarship, and ancient cultures. Their role was to advise, not to predict the future. That fact that you fail to "get" the difference, speaks only of your limitations, and how ill suited you are for cultural complexities, and what they considered as "important" advice FOR THEIR time, (and not some bogus "trick" to predict the future),

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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05-11-2013, 03:42 PM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(05-11-2013 01:59 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(05-11-2013 01:33 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  as dumb as an immovable rock, and therefore perfect to hold tenure in a secular religion college?

Yet YOU brag that YOU graduated from one. Most mainline RELIGIOUS supported, (but non-fundie) schools, do not care. All they care about is the authentic scholarship. Fundie-literalist "prophecy" using past verses to "prove" as authentic, something from the past IS NOT authentic scholarship, as I have shown in the links, and which you have not even addressed once. There is NOTHING you can do to convince me. It's a crackpot, "WAY out in left field" notion, only held by those ignorant of real scholarship, and ancient cultures. Their role was to advise, not to predict the future. That fact that you fail to "get" the difference, speaks only of your limitations, and how ill suited you are for cultural complexities, and what they considered as "important" advice FOR THEIR time, (and not some bogus "trick" to predict the future),

Um, I never mentioned my degrees until I was asked several times and more importantly, since you played an old card you like to play against weaker Christians, that of lacking serious scholarship about their own beliefs. Untrue in my case, I went to a secular university and majored in religion, and minored in refuting the BS that the religion professors taught as facts and truth.

I don't need to refute, for one example, an article by revisionist Jews who don't believe in God. Millions of Orthodox and Conservative Jews believe G_d wrote the Torah and Tanakh, millions of revisionist and reform Jews don't. There are millions of Jews in Israel asking if the Messiah will come and deliver their nation from internecine war, and they ALL believe the scriptures prophesy some future Messiah.

You keep SAYING prophets advised rather than predicted, than you ask if I might refute others' opinions about the matter. Speak for yourself, why don't you? Jesus astonished the Rabbis because He spoke on His own authority rather than quoting the mainline scholars of His day.

Personally, I think you are parroting what you understand of ancient presentism and then pushing it here as fact and your pals on this forum are like "Yah, man!" Why don't you distill the "proof" of your assertions to a few paragraphs that a poor lay scholar like me can understand... and debate?
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05-11-2013, 04:00 PM (This post was last modified: 05-11-2013 04:36 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(05-11-2013 03:42 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Um, I never mentioned my degrees until I was asked several times and more importantly, since you played an old card you like to play against weaker Christians, that of lacking serious scholarship about their own beliefs. Untrue in my case, I went to a secular university and majored in religion, and minored in refuting the BS that the religion professors taught as facts and truth.

Irrelevant. You have demonstrated you complete lack of knowledge of scripture, and you utter lack of exposure to mainline scholarship. What you call "revisionist Jews" is laughable. You have provided NOT ONE reference, just more "proof by assertion". You must REALLY live a world of gullible people. ALl the rest is "argumentum ad populum", and IN NO WAY demonstrates what they thought 2000 years ago. You REALLY can't stay on topic, can you ? Show me ONE poll that shows how many Jews are waiting to have their souls saved by a messiah. You make up shit, and course they said Jebus "astonished" people. What did you expect them to say. More off-point nonsense because you know your "prophesy" shit is wrong. You STILLL don't know what "Presentism" is, as it relates to History. Really. After all this time, you STILL can't get that straight either. Maybe you should consider a more .... um ... labor intensive career. There is no evidence that Jews who were performing sacrifices IN THE TEMPLE, as late as 70 CE, were waiting for a "spiritual savior" of the sort you describe, or that the messiah, (for the small groups that were actually waiting for one), was anything other than a political one.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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06-11-2013, 02:25 PM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(05-11-2013 04:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(05-11-2013 03:42 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Um, I never mentioned my degrees until I was asked several times and more importantly, since you played an old card you like to play against weaker Christians, that of lacking serious scholarship about their own beliefs. Untrue in my case, I went to a secular university and majored in religion, and minored in refuting the BS that the religion professors taught as facts and truth.

Irrelevant. You have demonstrated you complete lack of knowledge of scripture, and you utter lack of exposure to mainline scholarship. What you call "revisionist Jews" is laughable. You have provided NOT ONE reference, just more "proof by assertion". You must REALLY live a world of gullible people. ALl the rest is "argumentum ad populum", and IN NO WAY demonstrates what they thought 2000 years ago. You REALLY can't stay on topic, can you ? Show me ONE poll that shows how many Jews are waiting to have their souls saved by a messiah. You make up shit, and course they said Jebus "astonished" people. What did you expect them to say. More off-point nonsense because you know your "prophesy" shit is wrong. You STILLL don't know what "Presentism" is, as it relates to History. Really. After all this time, you STILL can't get that straight either. Maybe you should consider a more .... um ... labor intensive career. There is no evidence that Jews who were performing sacrifices IN THE TEMPLE, as late as 70 CE, were waiting for a "spiritual savior" of the sort you describe, or that the messiah, (for the small groups that were actually waiting for one), was anything other than a political one.

1) They did believe in future prophesy because every single person on this forum knows they were waiting for a political Messiah! That's why there were zealots and etc. The Qumran'ers were waiting for a Messiah as well, and anyone who says the authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls weren't in a monastic community awaiting the fulfillment of future Messianic prophecies would be laughed out of any kind of conservative or liberal scrolls conference.

2) BB, telling me what most scholars believe is still an ad populum argument. If you can tell me why they believe it we can debate it. Until then, you're simply asserting that a group of scholars believes something--and doing so without providing any reasons.
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06-11-2013, 02:31 PM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(06-11-2013 02:25 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(05-11-2013 04:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Irrelevant. You have demonstrated you complete lack of knowledge of scripture, and you utter lack of exposure to mainline scholarship. What you call "revisionist Jews" is laughable. You have provided NOT ONE reference, just more "proof by assertion". You must REALLY live a world of gullible people. ALl the rest is "argumentum ad populum", and IN NO WAY demonstrates what they thought 2000 years ago. You REALLY can't stay on topic, can you ? Show me ONE poll that shows how many Jews are waiting to have their souls saved by a messiah. You make up shit, and course they said Jebus "astonished" people. What did you expect them to say. More off-point nonsense because you know your "prophesy" shit is wrong. You STILLL don't know what "Presentism" is, as it relates to History. Really. After all this time, you STILL can't get that straight either. Maybe you should consider a more .... um ... labor intensive career. There is no evidence that Jews who were performing sacrifices IN THE TEMPLE, as late as 70 CE, were waiting for a "spiritual savior" of the sort you describe, or that the messiah, (for the small groups that were actually waiting for one), was anything other than a political one.

1) They did believe in future prophesy because every single person on this forum knows they were waiting for a political Messiah! That's why there were zealots and etc. The Qumran'ers were waiting for a Messiah as well, and anyone who says the authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls weren't in a monastic community awaiting the fulfillment of future Messianic prophecies would be laughed out of any kind of conservative or liberal scrolls conference.

2) BB, telling me what most scholars believe is still an ad populum argument. If you can tell me why they believe it we can debate it. Until then, you're simply asserting that a group of scholars believes something--and doing so without providing any reasons.

Wrong again. The fact that one radical community was expecting a political messiah in no way legitimates the concept of "prophecy as fortune telling". Do try again. I know you will. As far as explaining things to you, I won't bother. Fundie "prophesy" bs is not a part of ANY mainline course on the OT. I don't have to provide reasons. Anyone with a background in the subject, including most college Freshmen get that. That fact you don't speaks only of your lack of education on the subject. You didn't even try to refute ANY of the references to the scholars I gave you above. You really are a dishonest/desperate troll.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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