Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
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28-09-2013, 05:09 PM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(28-09-2013 09:06 AM)Xinoftruden Wrote:  Quick question. Can you actually conduct tests on blood that old? I thought it became impossible after a few days.
Apparently the blood was alive.
http://www.examiner.com/article/blood-of...rgin-birth
I really have difficulty with this area of Ron's account. It is certainly the most fantastic and implausible story. However as I said before, Christians believe many implausible and fantastic things like the virgin birth and the resurrection. So I am keeping an open mind on this and not committing myself to believe one way or another on this particular point.
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28-09-2013, 05:13 PM
Video RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(28-09-2013 05:09 PM)excubitor Wrote:  Apparently the blood was alive.




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28-09-2013, 05:16 PM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(28-09-2013 04:49 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(28-09-2013 04:29 PM)excubitor Wrote:  Gold can be hammered over a wooden or metal base to any thickness. It's ridiculous to imagine that in ancient Egypt gold leaf came in small sheets about the size of a cigarette packet. Do you really imagine that gold leaf as thin as that would have been on chariot wheels in the heat of battle? How ridiculous. The gold would have had to stand up to some battering. So clearly for Ron's story to be true the gold of the wheels must be thick enough to maintain its structure in the event the underlying wood has perished if left undisturbed, but not thick enough to maintain its structure when attempting to pick it up.

Your links to various kinds of underwater ship junk is meaningless. Nobody is arguing that any kind of object might find its way to the depths of the sea. The question is whether or not the object that Ron Wyatt photographed was a gold plated chariot wheel. So far the gold plated chariot wheel is the most plausible explanation for what we are looking at in the photo is. What do you think it is? A bath, a pot, a train? Give me a break.

I'm pretty sure you're just a Poe cause no one can be that stupid. It a valve wheel for starters and if what you are saying was true (it's not) then it wouldn't have crumbled because Gold is non-reactive. Gold can sit in saltwater forever and never oxidise. Now wooden wheels however would last maybe 30 years in salt water so it can't be 2300 Years old and be wood.

This is not even an Atheist thing most christians have declared all of this obvious fraudsters work fraud. He was nothing but a scam artist trying to get peoples money.
So I will leave you to fight it out with DanceforTwo. She says there is no way the golden wheels could have survived and not crumbled. You say they could not crumble at all. Somewhere in the middle is the truth of the matter whereby the gold is coated thickly over the top of the wood which has perished.
It is idiotic to claim that it is a valve wheel. Is a valve wheel made of gold is it? And if it is not gold and was a valve wheel then coral would have grown all over it.

If you have to resort to insults like calling me stupid then clearly you have lost the debate. What astonishes me is the absurdities that atheists will resort to and the abject illogicality of their arguments as they try to discredit Christians and arguments which add weight and support to the Bible.
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28-09-2013, 05:44 PM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
Wyatt's WAR would have had no trouble raising money from idiot xtians eager for a piece of the ark or some such other biblical bullshit. Every year there is some group of scam artists out looking for the ark or whatever and they never seem to have trouble raising funds.

However, as Joe Zias, former curator of the Israel Antiquities Authority noted:

Quote:"Ron Wyatt is neither an archaeologist nor has he ever carried out a legally licensed excavation in Israel or Jerusalem. In order to excavate one must have at least a BA in archaeology which he does not possess despite his claims to the contrary. ... [His claims] fall into the category of trash which one finds in tabloids such as the National Enquirer, Sun etc."


Even more impressive is that Answers in Genesis called Wyatt a fraud. And when those frauds call you a fraud....you're a fucking fraud!
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28-09-2013, 05:45 PM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(28-09-2013 04:29 PM)excubitor Wrote:  
(27-09-2013 10:36 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Actually, the photo that I posted, the one that looks more like a glob of engine parts is a train that ended up in the Red Sea. How it got there... well...who knows. Maybe Moses tossed it out there, back several thousand years ago.

Here's another photo. It's the Wreck of the Ulysses which sank back in 1887 in the Red Sea. You'll have to follow the link to see it.

http://www.scubatravel.co.uk/ul_Wheel_28_05.html

I'm telling you, the Red Sea full of scattered ships, cars, trains, tractors and part of tractors, wooden steering wheels from boats, pots. old fishing rods and kitchen sinks.

Anyone for a slightly used bathtub??

http://www.scubatravel.co.uk/ul_Bath_28_05.html

As for gold leaf on the wheel. Have you ever used gold leaf? I have. It is gold that has been pounded to less than a hairs width. It comes in small sheets about the size of a cigarette pack and each sheet is so thin that if you sneeze it flies all over the place. It's thinner than one ply tissue and used only for decorative purposes. It's applied with a fine brush and slightly rubbed onto the object to make it adhere. Actually one could think of it more like paint and it chips off like paint over time. The Egyptians gold leafed the outside of the wheels of their chariots for the Pharaohs. They wouldn't survive in water for very long.
Gold can be hammered over a wooden or metal base to any thickness. It's ridiculous to imagine that in ancient Egypt gold leaf came in small sheets about the size of a cigarette packet. Do you really imagine that gold leaf as thin as that would have been on chariot wheels in the heat of battle? How ridiculous. The gold would have had to stand up to some battering. So clearly for Ron's story to be true the gold of the wheels must be thick enough to maintain its structure in the event the underlying wood has perished if left undisturbed, but not thick enough to maintain its structure when attempting to pick it up.

Your links to various kinds of underwater ship junk is meaningless. Nobody is arguing that any kind of object might find its way to the depths of the sea. The question is whether or not the object that Ron Wyatt photographed was a gold plated chariot wheel. So far the gold plated chariot wheel is the most plausible explanation for what we are looking at in the photo is. What do you think it is? A bath, a pot, a train? Give me a break.

You are very wrong about gold leaf and chariots. The chariots in Ancient Egypt were built for lightness and speed. They were made of imported wood and the axle was metal. Had the chariot been made any heavier as with metal on the wheels it would have sunk down in the Egyptian sands. These chariots were specifically created for the desert and sand and especially speed.

Here is a better description of Egyptian chariots than I can give. This is from a Tour Egypt web site.

"The chariot was built of pieces of wood which had been bent into the required shape possibly by immersing them in boiling hot water for several hours, bending them and then letting them dry. Various kinds of wood were used: elm, ash for the axles and sycamore for the foot board.
The Egyptians knew two types of chariots. These consisted of the four wheeled chariot which, by the late 18th and early 19th dynasties, were mostly abandoned for the superior six spoke vehicles. The six spoked wheels could be made lighter and were better supported than the heavier four spoked wheels, making the whole chariot more reliable.
The spokes of the wheels were made by bending six pieces of wood into a V-shape. These were glued together in such a way that every spoke was composed of two halves of two V-shaped pieces, forming a hexagonal star. The tips of the V's were fastened to the hub by wet cattle intestines, which hardened when they dried"

"The tires were made of sections of wood, tied to the wheel with leather lashings which passed through slots in the tire sections. The thongs didn't come in contact with the ground, making the chariot more reliable by reducing the wear and tear.German carpenters who reconstructed such a chariot needed about six hundred hours to complete it.
Two horses were yoked to the chassis by saddle-pads that were placed on the horses' backs. Leather girths around the horses' chests and bellies prevented them from slipping. A single shaft attached to the yoke pulled the chariots."

The front of the frame where the charioteer stood was wood and leather gilded with gold or silver leaf in beautiful designs but nothing too heavy. It was a great for hunting game in the desert and yet maneuverable in battle.

I posted the photos of all the scattered junk at the bottom of the Red Sea to point out not just how much stuff is there but how easily it would be to find something that might look like a chariot and misinterpret that as such.

Here is a four spoke wheel used earlier in Egyptian history.

[Image: carro_egizio_museo_firenze.jpg]

Here is a six spoke wheel used later. It had better stability.

[Image: king-tut-chariot-676178-.jpg]

Though this chariot looks like it's made out of solid gold it's wood and leather with gold leaf. The gold leaf has remained on the chariot because it was part in King Tut's burial chamber and was not exposed to sand storms, water and weather.

[Image: 4250854224_58590cac21.jpg]

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“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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28-09-2013, 05:46 PM (This post was last modified: 28-09-2013 06:05 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(28-09-2013 05:16 PM)excubitor Wrote:  
(28-09-2013 04:49 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I'm pretty sure you're just a Poe cause no one can be that stupid. It a valve wheel for starters and if what you are saying was true (it's not) then it wouldn't have crumbled because Gold is non-reactive. Gold can sit in saltwater forever and never oxidise. Now wooden wheels however would last maybe 30 years in salt water so it can't be 2300 Years old and be wood.

This is not even an Atheist thing most christians have declared all of this obvious fraudsters work fraud. He was nothing but a scam artist trying to get peoples money.
So I will leave you to fight it out with DanceforTwo. She says there is no way the golden wheels could have survived and not crumbled. You say they could not crumble at all. Somewhere in the middle is the truth of the matter whereby the gold is coated thickly over the top of the wood which has perished.
It is idiotic to claim that it is a valve wheel. Is a valve wheel made of gold is it? And if it is not gold and was a valve wheel then coral would have grown all over it.

If you have to resort to insults like calling me stupid then clearly you have lost the debate. What astonishes me is the absurdities that atheists will resort to and the abject illogicality of their arguments as they try to discredit Christians and arguments which add weight and support to the Bible.

So then, as generalizations seem to be his norm, Mr. Judgmental Troll can be legitimately expected to take credit for all the pedophile crimes in his cult.

The Exodus never happened. Archaeologists know that. So whatever is or is not found at the bottom of the Reed Sea, is irrelevant. The entire argument is irrelevant, and a total waste of time. Moses was a mythological figure from the traditions of the Northern Kingdom.

The only way a claim to a "gold covered wheel" (which we don't even KNOW for sure is a chariot wheel) would be if it fit in with other similar known Egyptian artifacts. There are NO "gold covered" chariot wheels found anywhere, that were non-ornamental, that I am aware of, in any museum. Chariot wheels, (even the wheels of the Pharaoh's chariot that were actually USED for transport) were not covered in gold.

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28-09-2013, 05:47 PM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
As the saying goes, "it's good to be the king." But the schlubs who were doing the fighting would not have had to worry about gold-plated chariots.
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28-09-2013, 05:49 PM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(28-09-2013 04:29 PM)excubitor Wrote:  So far the gold plated chariot wheel is the most plausible explanation for what we are looking at in the photo is.

Ron Wyatt is such a superhero he is mentioned twice in creation.com's list of "arguments we should not use."

http://creation.com/arguments-we-think-c...ld-not-use

What I want to know is why. Why are such things so important to people like you and PJ? Why does it seem a necessary condition of faith, to have faith in all of these crackpots?

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28-09-2013, 05:53 PM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(28-09-2013 05:16 PM)excubitor Wrote:  
(28-09-2013 04:49 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I'm pretty sure you're just a Poe cause no one can be that stupid. It a valve wheel for starters and if what you are saying was true (it's not) then it wouldn't have crumbled because Gold is non-reactive. Gold can sit in saltwater forever and never oxidise. Now wooden wheels however would last maybe 30 years in salt water so it can't be 2300 Years old and be wood.

This is not even an Atheist thing most christians have declared all of this obvious fraudsters work fraud. He was nothing but a scam artist trying to get peoples money.
So I will leave you to fight it out with DanceforTwo. She says there is no way the golden wheels could have survived and not crumbled. You say they could not crumble at all. Somewhere in the middle is the truth of the matter whereby the gold is coated thickly over the top of the wood which has perished.
It is idiotic to claim that it is a valve wheel. Is a valve wheel made of gold is it? And if it is not gold and was a valve wheel then coral would have grown all over it.

If you have to resort to insults like calling me stupid then clearly you have lost the debate. What astonishes me is the absurdities that atheists will resort to and the abject illogicality of their arguments as they try to discredit Christians and arguments which add weight and support to the Bible.

Gold-leafing and solid gold are slightly different. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilding

Quote: Herodotus mentions that the Egyptians gilded wood and metals, and many such objects have been excavated. Certain Ancient Greek statues of great prestige were chryselephantine, i.e., made of gold (for the clothing) and ivory (for the flesh); these however, were constructed with sheets of gold over a timber framework, not gilded. Extensive ornamental gilding was also used in the ceiling coffers of the Propylaea.

So there is no real disagreement between Dance and I, as I was responding to your claim that it was thicker gold covering the wheels. Gold Leaf would not have covered the entire wheel and would have flaked off as the wood disintegrated. However if, as you claimed, it was a thicker gold covering, it would not have crumbled upon being raised up.

As to the claim it was a valve wheel it is far more likely than the claim of it being a chariot wheel from an event that has never had a single piece of non-biblical evidence. Exodus has been rather thoroughly debunked by people with a much greater interest in having that story be true. 150 years of continuous archeology has thus far show no evidence of any of the events described and much evidence that shows the evolution of semitic tribes from a polytheistic religion into a shrinking pantheon until only the cult of Yahweh grabbed the power.

It always interests me when people try to argue the impossible. How weak must ones faith be that reality itself must be ignored to keep all the pieces of it in place? To be a YEC biblical literalist one must take the stance that all of science is wrong. A stance that is indefensible when making it on the internet using a computer powered by electricity. All of those thing work because the theories and principles that we have discovered, theories that do not work in a 6000 year old universe.

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28-09-2013, 07:22 PM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(28-09-2013 05:53 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(28-09-2013 05:16 PM)excubitor Wrote:  So I will leave you to fight it out with DanceforTwo. She says there is no way the golden wheels could have survived and not crumbled. You say they could not crumble at all. Somewhere in the middle is the truth of the matter whereby the gold is coated thickly over the top of the wood which has perished.
It is idiotic to claim that it is a valve wheel. Is a valve wheel made of gold is it? And if it is not gold and was a valve wheel then coral would have grown all over it.

If you have to resort to insults like calling me stupid then clearly you have lost the debate. What astonishes me is the absurdities that atheists will resort to and the abject illogicality of their arguments as they try to discredit Christians and arguments which add weight and support to the Bible.

Gold-leafing and solid gold are slightly different. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilding

Quote: Herodotus mentions that the Egyptians gilded wood and metals, and many such objects have been excavated. Certain Ancient Greek statues of great prestige were chryselephantine, i.e., made of gold (for the clothing) and ivory (for the flesh); these however, were constructed with sheets of gold over a timber framework, not gilded. Extensive ornamental gilding was also used in the ceiling coffers of the Propylaea.

So there is no real disagreement between Dance and I, as I was responding to your claim that it was thicker gold covering the wheels. Gold Leaf would not have covered the entire wheel and would have flaked off as the wood disintegrated. However if, as you claimed, it was a thicker gold covering, it would not have crumbled upon being raised up.

As to the claim it was a valve wheel it is far more likely than the claim of it being a chariot wheel from an event that has never had a single piece of non-biblical evidence. Exodus has been rather thoroughly debunked by people with a much greater interest in having that story be true. 150 years of continuous archeology has thus far show no evidence of any of the events described and much evidence that shows the evolution of semitic tribes from a polytheistic religion into a shrinking pantheon until only the cult of Yahweh grabbed the power.

It always interests me when people try to argue the impossible. How weak must ones faith be that reality itself must be ignored to keep all the pieces of it in place? To be a YEC biblical literalist one must take the stance that all of science is wrong. A stance that is indefensible when making it on the internet using a computer powered by electricity. All of those thing work because the theories and principles that we have discovered, theories that do not work in a 6000 year old universe.

As I mentioned in a previous post anything heavy like a thick metal gilding even on the outside of the wheel would have sunk the chariot down in the sand. The Egyptians were always fighting the sand in the desert and the lightweight quality of their chariots was what made them work so well in that environment.

Of course the whole Exodus story is myth so it doesn't really matter.

Shakespeare Insult 13 – Henry IV Part 1
“That trunk of humours, that bolting-hutch of beastliness, that swollen parcel of dropsies, that huge bombard of sack, that stuffed cloak-bag of guts, that reverend vice, that grey Iniquity, that father ruffian, that vanity in years?”
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