Root Causes: San Bernardino, California shooting
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04-12-2015, 02:43 PM
RE: Root Causes: San Bernardino, California shooting
(04-12-2015 02:20 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(04-12-2015 02:13 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  I hear you loud and clear, you don't have any constructive solutions and prefer to stick your head in the sand.

No. You fail to see. A gun is powerless without a human behind it.

There is no way to prevent evil. You can only attempt to defend yourself. You can ban every gun on the earth. Mad men will still make new ones. Or they'll build bombs and set them off in populated places. The largest school masacre was with a bomb, not guns. London still has murder and assault rates as high or higher than American cities and they HAVE NO GUNS. France and the surrounding countries have assault weapons bans. 138 people are dead in the Paris attacks mostly by assault weapons. Get it?

I keep asking for constructive solutions that pre-emt gun violence.
So far all I get from you are tangents, misdirections and strawmen.

Just say, 'I don't know' and be done with me.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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04-12-2015, 02:45 PM
RE: Root Causes: San Bernardino, California shooting
(04-12-2015 02:13 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(04-12-2015 01:43 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Gas can explode, catch fire, or the fumes can be toxic. A hole in the ground is dangerous for obvious reasons. A gun in a locked room by itself is not dangerous. 1200 guns in a locked room are not dangerous. They don't just start shooting themselves. Now as far as ammo goes, that's a different story. Some jurisdictions have storage requirements and limitations, fire code etc. So I don't know if this guy was breaking any laws like that. But even if his house burned down, there would be no real danger. Ammo that ignites from heat will be nothing more than fireworks, because without a barrel to build pressure behind the bullet, the bullets have no power. The cases will fragment and pop at most.

I hear you loud and clear, you don't have any constructive solutions and prefer to stick your head in the sand.

No, FC, your comparisons were fundamentally flawed.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-12-2015, 02:47 PM
RE: Root Causes: San Bernardino, California shooting
(04-12-2015 02:37 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(04-12-2015 02:20 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  London still has murder and assault rates as high or higher than American cities and they HAVE NO GUNS.

This brings to mind Mark Twain's quip about "lies, damned lies, and statistics." Which American cities? In your reply to me, you compared London with New York. New York does not have the highest rates of crime, violent crime, or murder in the U.S. The last time I checked, it wasn't even in the top 20. Neither was Chicago. A more meaningful statistic would be the murder/violent crime rates for the entire country of England vs. the entire U.S. I don't know what those numbers are, but that statistic would be more meaningful than comparing one cherry-picked British city to one cherry-picked U.S. city.

NOTE: Guns are much more efficient for killing people than knives or baseball bats. Bombs are even more efficient, but they are harder to obtain -- in the U.S. at least.

Home-made bombs are easy-peasy, the components are readily available.

I could go out to my garage and assemble a deadly bomb in minutes. Drinking Beverage

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04-12-2015, 02:47 PM
RE: Root Causes: San Bernardino, California shooting
(04-12-2015 02:37 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(04-12-2015 02:20 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  London still has murder and assault rates as high or higher than American cities and they HAVE NO GUNS.

This brings to mind Mark Twain's quip about "lies, damned lies, and statistics." Which American cities? In your reply to me, you compared London with New York. New York does not have the highest rates of crime, violent crime, or murder in the U.S. The last time I checked, it wasn't even in the top 20. Neither was Chicago. A more meaningful statistic would be the murder/violent crime rates for the entire country of England vs. the entire U.S. I don't know what those numbers are, but that statistic would be more meaningful than comparing one cherry-picked British city to one cherry-picked U.S. city.

NOTE: Guns are much more efficient for killing people than knives or baseball bats. Bombs are even more efficient, but they are harder to obtain -- in the U.S. at least.

I used New York because it is the only city with a population the size of London. Roughly 8.5 million. No other American city compares.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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04-12-2015, 03:09 PM
RE: Root Causes: San Bernardino, California shooting
(04-12-2015 02:47 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(04-12-2015 02:37 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  This brings to mind Mark Twain's quip about "lies, damned lies, and statistics." Which American cities? In your reply to me, you compared London with New York. New York does not have the highest rates of crime, violent crime, or murder in the U.S. The last time I checked, it wasn't even in the top 20. Neither was Chicago. A more meaningful statistic would be the murder/violent crime rates for the entire country of England vs. the entire U.S. I don't know what those numbers are, but that statistic would be more meaningful than comparing one cherry-picked British city to one cherry-picked U.S. city.

NOTE: Guns are much more efficient for killing people than knives or baseball bats. Bombs are even more efficient, but they are harder to obtain -- in the U.S. at least.

I used New York because it is the only city with a population the size of London. Roughly 8.5 million. No other American city compares.

Maybe, but it's still cherry-picking. Comparing one city to one other city proves absolutely nothing. If you want to make a case that we need guns to be safe, show me that England or Canada as a country has a significantly higher per capita rate of violent crime/murder than the U.S. as a country -- because if the rates are comparable, it says nothing at all about guns, and if the rates are lower in those countries, it hurts your case rather than helping it. If we need guns to be safe, places without guns should be absolute hellholes where nobody is safe.

Note that none of this is absolute proof of anything anyway, because there are other important differences between the countries. But you haven't even established a correlation between guns and crime rates.
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04-12-2015, 03:11 PM
RE: Root Causes: San Bernardino, California shooting
(04-12-2015 02:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-12-2015 02:13 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  I hear you loud and clear, you don't have any constructive solutions and prefer to stick your head in the sand.

No, FC, your comparisons were fundamentally flawed.

Please elaborate.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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04-12-2015, 03:15 PM
RE: Root Causes: San Bernardino, California shooting
(04-12-2015 03:09 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(04-12-2015 02:47 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I used New York because it is the only city with a population the size of London. Roughly 8.5 million. No other American city compares.

Maybe, but it's still cherry-picking. Comparing one city to one other city proves absolutely nothing. If you want to make a case that we need guns to be safe, show me that England or Canada as a country has a significantly higher per capita rate of violent crime/murder than the U.S. as a country -- because if the rates are comparable, it says nothing at all about guns, and if the rates are lower in those countries, it hurts your case rather than helping it. If we need guns to be safe, places without guns should be absolute hellholes where nobody is safe.

Note that none of this is absolute proof of anything anyway, because there are other important differences between the countries. But you haven't even established a correlation between guns and crime rates.

I understand and will look into it further. Just wanted to be clear that it wasn't intentional cherry picking. I didn't pick New York because I knew it had lower assault rates or a similar homicide rate. It was the only American city that matched the size of population and its not even close. The next city would be Los Angeles and it has half the population of London. I actually didn't realize London was so huge.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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04-12-2015, 03:24 PM
RE: Root Causes: San Bernardino, California shooting
The root cause of religious violence are combining holy books with weapons and thinking peace is about "defending" the book/god/club with weapons. But that cuts both ways. The only difference between the East and the West is the west has had a longer leash on religion. But the entire planet still has too many weapons and too many religious people willing to use weapons to "defend" their "rights".

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04-12-2015, 03:29 PM
RE: Root Causes: San Bernardino, California shooting
(04-12-2015 03:15 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(04-12-2015 03:09 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Maybe, but it's still cherry-picking. Comparing one city to one other city proves absolutely nothing. If you want to make a case that we need guns to be safe, show me that England or Canada as a country has a significantly higher per capita rate of violent crime/murder than the U.S. as a country -- because if the rates are comparable, it says nothing at all about guns, and if the rates are lower in those countries, it hurts your case rather than helping it. If we need guns to be safe, places without guns should be absolute hellholes where nobody is safe.

Note that none of this is absolute proof of anything anyway, because there are other important differences between the countries. But you haven't even established a correlation between guns and crime rates.

I understand and will look into it further. Just wanted to be clear that it wasn't intentional cherry picking. I didn't pick New York because I knew it had lower assault rates or a similar homicide rate. It was the only American city that matched the size of population and its not even close. The next city would be Los Angeles and it has half the population of London. I actually didn't realize London was so huge.

OK, I withdraw the charge of cherry-picking. My apologies.
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04-12-2015, 03:33 PM
RE: Root Causes: San Bernardino, California shooting
(04-12-2015 03:11 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(04-12-2015 02:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, FC, your comparisons were fundamentally flawed.

Please elaborate.

See post #90.

Inanimate guns in his house are not comparable in danger to those.

A valid comparison would be loaded, unsecured firearms outside his home.

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