Root Causes: San Bernardino, California shooting
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11-12-2015, 04:52 AM
RE: Root Causes: San Bernardino, California shooting
(10-12-2015 04:32 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(10-12-2015 02:23 PM)BnW Wrote:  That gun control at a national level wouldn't seriously reduce the violence.

If we're just talking "gun control" and not an outright ban and mass confiscation, I don't think gun violence would drop much at all. Think about it. Rifles of any type are used in very few crimes. "Assault" rifles even less so. The majority of gun crime occurs with easily concealed handguns. Even an outright ban of semi auto handguns wouldn't stop gang bangers. They'd just carry revolvers (many already do). Domestic violence abusers will still kill their partner with whatever gun they have. I've been to domestic murder scenes where a single shot pistol was used. (I've actually been to more strangulation/beating murder scenes than gun deaths in domestic violence cases,so they'll do it without a gun) And for suicides, do they really care how many bullets their gun holds? They only need one damn bullet to blow their brains out.

In my experience, the majority of guns used in street crimes were stolen. Many shootings are done by offenders not even of legal age to own a handgun. So these people aren't buying them legally anyway. Background checks do nothing on this issue.

It's not Joe America out there committing all of these murders either. (However there is a major DV murder problem amongst white women by white male offenders) But mostly we have a minority gang problem. The statistics are a little hard to interpret unless you've seen it first hand. For example, on our reporting system to the FBI for crime statistics, we have to put "white" for hispanic murder suspects. In 2012 there were 5,531 black murder offenders. The same year there were 4,582 "white" offenders. But a large chunk of those probably were NOT white caucasian. A ton of them were hispanic gang members.

If we want to stop gun violence, we need to start with getting people out of gangs. Get them jobs. Focus on education. Better mental health care. And one of the best ideas was getting rid of low income housing communities. So much crime occurs in these places. You stick 5,000 low income people all together and its a cess pool of crime. Additionally, domestic violence. Married couples need training or counseling before marriage. Not sure how to really tackle that issue. But I think that's something that needs to be solved.

Additionally, we must focus our attention on alcohol. Nearly all of the domestic violence cases I've responded to during my time in law enforcement involved alcohol.

I was thinking UK or Australia type of restrictions.

I also agree with your points on gangs and domestic violence. The only thing I would add is fewer legal guns means fewer stolen guns.

Nothing is going to reduce gun violence to zero. Even with outright bans on civilian ownership of weapons you're still going to get things like the Paris attacks. And, I'd be against restrictions that took hunting away from sportsman. I have no interest in hunting but I know many people who do. But, our current strategy of throwing more and more guns into society and hoping it sorts itself out clearly isn't working. Something has to change.

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12-12-2015, 09:54 AM
RE: Root Causes: San Bernardino, California shooting
To those people that say "You can't expect gun control to work if all the states have different laws" ----

You're looking at a very slippery slope there my friend.

.....

We are the United States. NOT the United State.

......

If you expect the people of Montana, Idaho, or Ohio to be happy with the laws of California, New York or Massachusetts you're missing the point of having more than one state.

If you don't like the laws of a particular state - if those laws are contrary to your beliefs, you can feel free to pull up stakes, and move somewhere more to your liking. It's called "Voting with your feet".

If you make it impossible for people to seek a happier place, a place more to their liking -- just because YOU think the whole world should believe like you do -- I'd say again - you've missed the point of having more than one state. You'll also create a breeding ground for discontent - and it's going to cause problems.

If you're convinced that your laws don't work because your neighbor won't go along with your way of thinking -- you can try to force them....

That's what the Islamic State is all about...... Conformity on demand...

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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12-12-2015, 10:08 AM
RE: Root Causes: San Bernardino, California shooting
To those people that say “just because YOU think the whole world should believe like you do...”

pot meet kettle


e pluribus unum

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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12-12-2015, 12:31 PM
RE: Root Causes: San Bernardino, California shooting
(10-12-2015 02:23 PM)BnW Wrote:  That gun control at a national level wouldn't seriously reduce the violence.

I certainly have not said that and I'd like to know what I've said that you believe implies that. Consider

N.B. There are already myriad federal gun control laws and regulations. The last big one, the AWB, failed to reduce violence
not because it was federal, but because it did not address any actual problem.

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12-12-2015, 12:55 PM
RE: Root Causes: San Bernardino, California shooting
(10-12-2015 05:42 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(10-12-2015 09:12 AM)Chas Wrote:  It doesn't actually work that way. If I go to New Hampshire and buy a rifle that is not allowed in Massachusetts, then as soon as I enter Massachusetts I'm a criminal. If I'm already a criminal, no big deal. Dodgy
By federal law, one can only purchase a handgun in one’s state of residence.

I’m looking at this whole thing from the viewpoint of keeping these firearms from those that are going to use them for criminal purposes. As long as the assault-style firearms (not handguns) are sold anywhere in the US then a person only has to be inconvenienced to go to that State.

"assault-style firearms" aren't the cause for any but a tiny fraction of deaths; handguns are used in the overwhelming majority of murders by firearm. This is why the federal AWB didn't do anything to reduce deaths.

Quote:Do Federal laws ban the sale of firearms like those used in San Bernardino if you aren’t a resident of that State? I don’t think they are, and then there is the gun show loophole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole

There is no "gun show loophole". Private sales do not require a background check.
It is against the law to transfer a firearm to anyone not legally entitled to possess it.
In Massachusetts, an individual may only privately sell four firearms per year, and each sale must be reported to the state.

Quote:
(10-12-2015 09:12 AM)Chas Wrote:  Maybe you could point to a tragedy and a law that would have prevented it.

Use the three I already mentioned and imagine that none of the weapons used in those shootings were available for sale anywhere in the US or are available but only with very strict criteria for ownership. These two restrictions alone would almost certainly have prevented the tragedies in the way they happened.

You realize that would require the confiscation of the tens of millions of these already out there? Consider

Quote:A person can always make the case of smuggling them into the country across a border or by sea etc but this alone would most likely eliminate the Columbine and Sandy Hook shooters seeing that they were kids not connected to any terrorist group. The San Bernardino perps would have had a much tougher obstacle to jump other than asking their neighbor to buy the firearms for them.

AR pattern rifles exist in the tens of millions. It has been the most popular semi-auto rifle in the U.S. for at least two decades.

Quote:
(10-12-2015 09:12 AM)‘Chas Wrote:  Hyperbole, from either side, is not helpful to the discussion.

I wasn’t attempting to be a smartass Chas, didn’t mean for it to come across that way. I’m trying to make the point that there are already firearms that are banned from the public. Instead of an RPG
N.B. An RPG is not a firearm.
Quote:lets use machine guns as an example http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpoliti...-the-books & http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d099:SN00049: @@@D&summ2=m&. I can’t imagine people going around moping and fuming that they can’t go out and buy a machine gun

They do, actually. Unsure

Quote:when they weigh the consequences of having a criminal or terrorist in possession of one. Notice that machine guns have yet to be used in any of these mass shootings. I would bet my left nut that if the machine guns on that banned list were available for purchase in the US they would be the weapon of choice and the body counts would be even higher.

It is legal, but expensive, to own a machine gun. The list from the federal AWB is inapplicable as the law has expired.

Quote:
(10-12-2015 09:12 AM)‘Chas Wrote:  I don't think there is any law against you owning a Gatling gun. Consider

That is just crazy!
https://www.gunsamerica.com/969087610/GA...5-COLT.htm

(10-12-2015 09:12 AM)‘Chas Wrote:  Until the watch list is under control, that provision is not acceptable. There is no accountability for who goes on that watch list, there is no due process, no oversight, nothing.

Please explain what you mean by “under control”. When I look it up I find this https://www.ise.gov/terrorist-watchlist

The problems with the watch list are well-documented; the no-fly list is even worse.

Quote:
(10-12-2015 09:12 AM)‘Chas Wrote:  That's really the point. Gun laws affect law-abiding people, not criminals, and certainly not terrorists.

Societal change is the answer.

While I might agree with you couldn’t you say the same thing about any and all laws? Laws are put in place to limit what people can and can’t do so that society doesn’t fall into chaos. We are all limited by laws of what we can and can’t do from how we drive our cars to how we treat our spouses. The difference I see is that guns are tools specifically designed to kill.

I will address the rest later.

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12-12-2015, 04:54 PM
RE: Root Causes: San Bernardino, California shooting
(12-12-2015 12:31 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-12-2015 02:23 PM)BnW Wrote:  That gun control at a national level wouldn't seriously reduce the violence.

I certainly have not said that and I'd like to know what I've said that you believe implies that. Consider

N.B. There are already myriad federal gun control laws and regulations. The last big one, the AWB, failed to reduce violence
not because it was federal, but because it did not address any actual problem.

You've made several comments that lead me to believe that's your perspective. If you're telling me it's not, then I accept you at your word. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth.

As for the AWB, given Congress has basically outlawed doing any studies on gun violence, I think it's tough to say with any certainty what the impacts are. But, there were some studies done previously. Here is a link to a story on the results.

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12-12-2015, 05:13 PM
RE: Root Causes: San Bernardino, California shooting
(12-12-2015 10:08 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  To those people that say “just because YOU think the whole world should believe like you do...”

pot meet kettle


e pluribus unum


Wrong..

I don't expect Californians to think like Michiganders......

I expect California to have draconian gun laws.

That's their call....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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