Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.
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18-08-2015, 08:25 AM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2015 08:39 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.
Too bad your (supposedly) "omnipotent" (LMAO) *god* is so impotent, uncreative, stupid and unimmaginative that he can only make life happen in the very same (suspiciously Consider ) similar way that one would expect to see if life had evolved without his help.

Tricky little fucker - that god of yours. Drinking Beverage
It's actually shocking that you seem to think he's VERY limited in his abilities, godexists, if he is/was limited to this one pathway.

Can't you trade in your dumb god for a smarter one ?
Tongue ..... Rolleyes ..... Facepalm

Actually this thread betrays a very strange logic. IF this enzyme is "important" (or there are "rankings" of chemical processes), then it implies that no one is really in charge of anything, and they just "happen". So in fact, this fool is shooting himself in the foot with the assumptions that underlie the thought process here. If Jebus "caused" what we observe, each step would just be of equal importance, now, wouldn't it ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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18-08-2015, 08:39 AM
RE: Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.
(18-08-2015 07:50 AM)Godexists Wrote:  
(17-08-2015 11:53 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Model T's didn't have, nor need, ECU's.

Indeed. Thats the same as to compare apples with oranges. If the Ford T had not several basic parts like the wheels, or even just the piston, it would not be able to do the job it was projected for..... same with biological systems.

To have a first living self replicating cell, much more than you might imagine, is required:

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...parts#3797


So, in addition to evolution, you don't know shit about cars too?


Take a modern 2015 Honda Civic, remove it's ECU, and see if the car starts. It will not. The ECU is critical for the function of the car, and it's removal renders the car's engine inoperable. Sure you can still open the doors, and the radio and lights might still work, but you will not be able to turn the key and start engine ignition. The engine is irreducibly complex, because the removal of the ECU renders it inoperable.


But this wasn't always the case, engines didn't always need ECU's to function. Roll the 2015 Honda Civic back to it's originator, the 1973 first gen Civic. Not only did this engine start and operate without an ECU, it also featured many other system precursors that either are no longer in modern models or have been replaced by other systems. The 1973's carburetor has been replaced with electronic fuel injection, allowing for more precise control of the fuel-air mixture into the combustion cylinder, but which requires the use of an ECM unit (my 97' Honda Nighthawk motorcycle is also carbureted, and likewise operates without an ECU). Both engines manage to get fuel-air mix into the cylinders at the right ratio for combustion, but they do so through different means; and while the removal of the ECU will stop a modern vehicle, it's inclusion is not necessary to design a functional internal combustion engine.


The ECU also controls other aspects of the vehicle, not just the engine.A faulty ECU can prevent the proper operation of traction control or anti-lock breaks, features that were likewise not present on the first gen Civic but now come standard.


There are two places where the analogy does break down. One, we know for a fact that automobiles are products of design, and they do not rely on sexual reproduction to multiply and introduce change. There is a reason why we need a new flu shot every year, and that's precisely because adaptation can and does occur. Just because you lack the imagination to explore how things could have changed over time into their present forms, does not mean that they were made that way with authorial intent.


This is intelligent design, the work of many laborers and tons of explosives over many years.

[Image: 284px-dean_franklin_-_06-04-03_mount_rus...-3_new.jpg]


This is the product of thousands (if not millions) of years of erosion and weather.

[Image: dadposts-nholdman1.jpg?w=460&h=531]


No, I don't expect you to be able to spot the difference, you're as thick as a brick. Drinking Beverage

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18-08-2015, 08:40 AM
RE: Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.
(18-08-2015 07:58 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

(18-08-2015 07:50 AM)Godexists Wrote:  Indeed. Thats the same as to compare apples with oranges.

No, they are DIRECTLY comparing a car to a car. Which is why you aren't happy with the analogy and hence then see fit to try and then swap things around to attempt to discredit said analogy.

what you do, is the same as to compare a 50ccm motobike to a harley davidson of 1200ccm.

or , to put it even more clear :

The best of Behe's book : Darwins Black box

Darwins Black Box page 40:

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...k-box#3760

So let us attempt to evolve a bicycle into a motorcycle by the gradual accumulation of mutations. Suppose that a factory produced bicycles, but that occasionally there was a mistake in manufacture. Let us further suppose that if the mistake led to an improvement in the bicycle, then the friends and neighbors of the lucky buyer would demand similar bikes, and the factory would retool to make the mutation a permanent feature. So, like biological mutations, successful mechanical mutations would reproduce and spread. If we are to keep our analogy relevant to biology, however, each change can only be a slight modification, duplication, or rearrangement of a preexisting component, and the change must improve the function of the bicycle. So if the factory mistakenly increased the size of a nut or decreased the diameter of a bolt, or added an extra wheel onto the front axle or left off the rear tire, or put a pedal on the handlebars or added extra spokes, and if any of these slight changes improved the bike ride, then the improvement would immediately be noticed by the buying public and the mutated bikes would, in true Darwinian fashion, dominate the market. Given these conditions, can we evolve a bicycle into a motorcycle? We can move in the right direction by making the seat more comfortable in small steps, the wheels bigger, and even (assuming our customers prefer the «biker» look) imitating the overall shape in various ways. But a motorcycle depends on a source of fuel, and a bicycle has nothing that can be slightly modified to become a gasoline tank. And what part of the bicycle could be duplicated to begin building a motor? Even if a lucky accident brought a lawnmower engine from a neighboring factory into the bicycle factory, the motor would have to be mounted on the bike and be connected in the right way to the drive chain. How could this be done step-by-step from bicycle parts? A factory that made bicycles simply could not produce a motorcycle by natural selection acting on variation—by «numerous, successive, slight modifications»—and in fact there is no example in history of a complex change in a product occurring in this manner.
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18-08-2015, 08:42 AM
RE: Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.
(18-08-2015 08:39 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  This is the product of thousands (if not millions) of years of erosion and weather.

[Image: dadposts-nholdman1.jpg?w=460&h=531]

Sadly, this is the product of thousands/millions of years + a couple more:

[Image: oldman.jpg]

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18-08-2015, 08:46 AM
RE: Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.
(18-08-2015 08:14 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 07:46 AM)Godexists Wrote:  How should and could natural non guided natural mechanisms forsee the necessity of chaperones in order to get a specific goal, that is the right precise 3 dimensional folding resulting in functional proteins to make living organisms ? Non living matter has no natural " drive " or purpose or goal to become living.

Your question is on a par with asking how water can foresee the need to form solid crystalline structures around the inside of your fridge because it has no natural drive or purpose or goal to form fractals.

You are asking the wrong question and because the answer is obviously it can't, you are drawing the wrong conclusion. This is called a leading question.

What you should be asking is, how can all the pieces of a chair naturally come together?

http://thecreatorsproject.vice.com/en_uk...lds-itself

[Image: 14205772852.gif]

Or how if I throw all USB sticks and their caps loose into my handbag front pocket that I often find the USB sticks days later with their caps on?

You know those children's toys where you have several silver balls on a flat surface where you have to tilt it carefully so each ball rests in its own indentation? How do you go about achieving this?

It's the same process for all of these examples.

Add too much energy to the system and it breaks apart. Not enough energy and nothing happens. You need to add just enough energy so structures form and then a random walk and plenty of time will do the rest.

Nice example:

MIT researchers, however, have created just that: a squat, white chair that assembles itself solely on the power of water currents and small magnets, and it may very well change the way we build things.

So you need at least 3 agents : Mit researchers ( which used intelligent design, so you argument failes already here ), the power of water currents, and small magnets.

Furthermore, water seems also to have properties that are intelligently designed:

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...ight=water

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...t-of-parts

In case of the first living self replicator however, much more would be needed

(i) A virtually complete DNA replication machinery, composed of one nucleoid DNA binding protein, SSB, DNA helicase, primase, gyrase, polymerase III, and ligase. No initiation and recruiting proteins seem to be essential, and the DNA gyrase is the only topoisomerase included, which should perform
both replication and chromosome segregation functions.

(ii) A very rudimentary system for DNA repair, including only one endonuclease, one exonuclease, and a uracyl-DNA glycosylase.

(iii) A virtually complete transcriptional machinery, including the three subunits of the RNA polymerase, a  factor, an RNA helicase, and four transcriptional factors (with elongation, antitermination, and transcription-translation coupling functions). Regulation of transcription does not appear to be essential in bacteria with reduced genomes, and therefore the minimal gene set does not contain any transcriptional regulators.

(iv) A nearly complete translational system. It contains the 20 aminoacyl-tRNA synthases, a methionyl-tRNA formyltransferase, five enzymes involved in tRNA maturation and modification, 50 ribosomal proteins (31 proteins for the large ribosomal subunit and 19 proteins for the small one), six proteins necessary for ribosome function and maturation (four of which are GTP binding proteins whose specific function is not well known), 12 translation factors, and 2 RNases involved in RNA degradation.

(v) Protein-processing, -folding, secretion, and degradation functions are performed by at least three proteins for posttranslational modification, two molecular chaperone systems (GroEL/S and DnaK/DnaJ/GrpE), six components of the translocase machinery (including the signal recognition particle, its receptor, the three essential components of the translocase channel, and a signal peptidase), one endopeptidase, and two proteases.

(vi) Cell division can be driven by FtsZ only, considering that, in a protected environment, the cell wall might not be necessary for cellular structure.

(vii) A basic substrate transport machinery cannot be clearly defined, based on our current knowledge. Although it appears that several cation and ABC transporters are always present in all analyzed bacteria, we have included in the minimal set only a PTS for glucose transport and a phosphate transporter. Further analysis should be performed to define a more complete set of transporters.

(viii) The energetic metabolism is based on ATP synthesis by glycolytic substrate-level phosphorylation.

(ix) The nonoxidative branch of the pentose pathway contains three enzymes (ribulose-phosphate epimerase, ribosephosphate isomerase, and transketolase), allowing the synthesis of pentoses (PRPP) from trioses or hexoses.

(x) No biosynthetic pathways for amino acids, since we suppose that they can be provided by the environment.

(xi) Lipid biosynthesis is reduced to the biosynthesis of phosphatidylethanolamine from the glycolytic intermediate dihydroxyacetone phosphate and activated fatty acids provided by the environment.

(xii) Nucleotide biosynthesis proceeds through the salvage pathways, from PRPP and the free bases adenine, guanine, and uracil, which are obtained from the environment.

(xiii) Most cofactor precursors (i.e., vitamins) are provided by the environment. Our proposed minimal cell performs only the steps for the syntheses of the strictly necessary coenzymes tetrahydrofolate, NAD, flavin aderine dinucleotide, thiamine diphosphate, pyridoxal phosphate, and CoA.
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18-08-2015, 08:56 AM
RE: Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.
(18-08-2015 08:46 AM)Godexists Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 08:14 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Your question is on a par with asking how water can foresee the need to form solid crystalline structures around the inside of your fridge because it has no natural drive or purpose or goal to form fractals.

You are asking the wrong question and because the answer is obviously it can't, you are drawing the wrong conclusion. This is called a leading question.

What you should be asking is, how can all the pieces of a chair naturally come together?

http://thecreatorsproject.vice.com/en_uk...lds-itself

[Image: 14205772852.gif]

Or how if I throw all USB sticks and their caps loose into my handbag front pocket that I often find the USB sticks days later with their caps on?

You know those children's toys where you have several silver balls on a flat surface where you have to tilt it carefully so each ball rests in its own indentation? How do you go about achieving this?

It's the same process for all of these examples.

Add too much energy to the system and it breaks apart. Not enough energy and nothing happens. You need to add just enough energy so structures form and then a random walk and plenty of time will do the rest.

Nice example:

MIT researchers, however, have created just that: a squat, white chair that assembles itself solely on the power of water currents and small magnets, and it may very well change the way we build things.

So you need at least 3 agents : Mit researchers ( which used intelligent design, so you argument failes already here ), the power of water currents, and small magnets.

Furthermore, water seems also to have properties that are intelligently designed:

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...ight=water

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...t-of-parts

In case of the first living self replicator however, much more would be needed

(i) A virtually complete DNA replication machinery, composed of one nucleoid DNA binding protein, SSB, DNA helicase, primase, gyrase, polymerase III, and ligase. No initiation and recruiting proteins seem to be essential, and the DNA gyrase is the only topoisomerase included, which should perform
both replication and chromosome segregation functions.

(ii) A very rudimentary system for DNA repair, including only one endonuclease, one exonuclease, and a uracyl-DNA glycosylase.

(iii) A virtually complete transcriptional machinery, including the three subunits of the RNA polymerase, a  factor, an RNA helicase, and four transcriptional factors (with elongation, antitermination, and transcription-translation coupling functions). Regulation of transcription does not appear to be essential in bacteria with reduced genomes, and therefore the minimal gene set does not contain any transcriptional regulators.

(iv) A nearly complete translational system. It contains the 20 aminoacyl-tRNA synthases, a methionyl-tRNA formyltransferase, five enzymes involved in tRNA maturation and modification, 50 ribosomal proteins (31 proteins for the large ribosomal subunit and 19 proteins for the small one), six proteins necessary for ribosome function and maturation (four of which are GTP binding proteins whose specific function is not well known), 12 translation factors, and 2 RNases involved in RNA degradation.

(v) Protein-processing, -folding, secretion, and degradation functions are performed by at least three proteins for posttranslational modification, two molecular chaperone systems (GroEL/S and DnaK/DnaJ/GrpE), six components of the translocase machinery (including the signal recognition particle, its receptor, the three essential components of the translocase channel, and a signal peptidase), one endopeptidase, and two proteases.

(vi) Cell division can be driven by FtsZ only, considering that, in a protected environment, the cell wall might not be necessary for cellular structure.

(vii) A basic substrate transport machinery cannot be clearly defined, based on our current knowledge. Although it appears that several cation and ABC transporters are always present in all analyzed bacteria, we have included in the minimal set only a PTS for glucose transport and a phosphate transporter. Further analysis should be performed to define a more complete set of transporters.

(viii) The energetic metabolism is based on ATP synthesis by glycolytic substrate-level phosphorylation.

(ix) The nonoxidative branch of the pentose pathway contains three enzymes (ribulose-phosphate epimerase, ribosephosphate isomerase, and transketolase), allowing the synthesis of pentoses (PRPP) from trioses or hexoses.

(x) No biosynthetic pathways for amino acids, since we suppose that they can be provided by the environment.

(xi) Lipid biosynthesis is reduced to the biosynthesis of phosphatidylethanolamine from the glycolytic intermediate dihydroxyacetone phosphate and activated fatty acids provided by the environment.

(xii) Nucleotide biosynthesis proceeds through the salvage pathways, from PRPP and the free bases adenine, guanine, and uracil, which are obtained from the environment.

(xiii) Most cofactor precursors (i.e., vitamins) are provided by the environment. Our proposed minimal cell performs only the steps for the syntheses of the strictly necessary coenzymes tetrahydrofolate, NAD, flavin aderine dinucleotide, thiamine diphosphate, pyridoxal phosphate, and CoA.

Completely false. Yet another set of lies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK26876/

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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18-08-2015, 09:03 AM
RE: Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.
(18-08-2015 08:46 AM)Godexists Wrote:  So you need at least 3 agents : Mit researchers ( which used intelligent design, so you argument failes already here ), the power of water currents, and small magnets.

As opposed to billions of years and a planet (or galaxy if panspermia is true) full of materials.

It was a visual demonstration of the principle of self organisation. The MIT researchers could have thrown in hundreds of those components into a large swimming pool, switched on a wave machine and got all kinds of structures out of it including chairs. But they got these interesting ordered structures arising out of chaotic behaviour without any intelligent design using only static simple components.

I use the same principle to create artificial intelligence. I don't know how my agents function nor do I dictate how they should do their job. I just throw in the ingredients, provide the right form of disturbance and let them self-organise.

I have also performed simulations where an environment full of particles that can bind together, break apart and conduct heat can form simple structures that feed off other structures. This without any form of attraction or repulsion.


(18-08-2015 08:46 AM)Godexists Wrote:  Furthermore, water seems also to have properties that are intelligently designed:

Weeping
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18-08-2015, 09:04 AM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2015 09:08 AM by kim.)
RE: Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.
(18-08-2015 07:46 AM)Godexists Wrote:  Indeed. The proponents of evolution are the ignorants.....Laugh out load

That totally destroys the Evolution Theory: How should and could natural non guided natural mechanisms forsee the necessity of chaperones in order to get a specific goal, that is the right precise 3 dimensional folding resulting in functional proteins to make living organisms ?

^^There^^ is where your understanding disconnects from science and reality.
There is no "foresee".
There is no "specific goal".

This is where your proud waves halt. Drinking Beverage



I'm not above paraphrasing fictional characters ... at least I don't pretend they're real.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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18-08-2015, 09:09 AM
RE: Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.
Fucking auto correct. Angry

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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18-08-2015, 09:22 AM
RE: Rubisco is the most important enyzme on the planet.
(18-08-2015 09:03 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 08:46 AM)Godexists Wrote:  So you need at least 3 agents : Mit researchers ( which used intelligent design, so you argument failes already here ), the power of water currents, and small magnets.

As opposed to billions of years and a planet (or galaxy if panspermia is true) full of materials.

It was a visual demonstration of the principle of self organisation. The MIT researchers could have thrown in hundreds of those components into a large swimming pool, switched on a wave machine and got all kinds of structures out of it including chairs. But they got these interesting ordered structures arising out of chaotic behaviour without any intelligent design using only static simple components.

I use the same principle to create artificial intelligence. I don't know how my agents function nor do I dictate how they should do their job. I just throw in the ingredients, provide the right form of disturbance and let them self-organise.

I have also performed simulations where an environment full of particles that can bind together, break apart and conduct heat can form simple structures that feed off other structures. This without any form of attraction or repulsion.


(18-08-2015 08:46 AM)Godexists Wrote:  Furthermore, water seems also to have properties that are intelligently designed:

Weeping

i have already posted, what it would require to make the first self replicating living cell.

In my view, impossible only through natural mechanisms.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...iving-cell
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