Rugby World Cup 2015
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24-09-2015, 08:39 AM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2015 08:44 AM by cjlr.)
RE: Rugby World Cup 2015
(23-09-2015 04:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(23-09-2015 03:47 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Or maybe I made an offhand remark because I found our complete indifference to our own national team's participation indicative. You decide!
Sure, you are indifferent about the sport, fine!

I... didn't even say that. Where are you getting this stuff from?

Look, maybe you really like rugby and cannot let a slight to its honour stand unavenged. Does that really make it necessary to argue with me about things I didn't say?

(23-09-2015 04:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I have no vested interest in whether you are to like the sport or are indifferent.
I am even fine that the sport isn't popular and isn't mentioned on the front page of the newspapers in your area.

But that doesn't mean that this isn't a world competition. Your claim that it is a "pretend" world cup is unfounded and derogatory.

That... isn't what I said either.

Come the fuck on, friend.

(23-09-2015 04:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Sure, not all competing teams have a realistic chance of winning. The competition is based on skill rather than luck and some teams have more skill than others, some countries have a higher grade of domestic competition and a larger pool of players vying for positions in the national team. This is the case with most team sports right?

Yes. I explicitly said this, and compared the situation to hockey.

(23-09-2015 04:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It is a fact that most countries aren't interested in the rugby world cup...

Sure. So what are you arguing about, precisely?

(23-09-2015 04:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(23-09-2015 03:47 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Wait. Don't. I know what I meant, and you don't. I regret that you may have misunderstood me.
Like I said, the label "twat" suits you well.

I get the impression that you just don't like me very much and are looking for things to argue with.

Am I right?

(23-09-2015 04:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(23-09-2015 03:47 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Except that isn't fallacious.
It is fallacious because that isn't the criteria for a tournament to be classified as a World Cup.

So my opinion is fallacious. Yes. Clearly.

I'll boil this down for you even farther. Which I shouldn't need to, because you're not stupid:
Not all competitions have equal followings around the world.

It would take some incredible mental gymnastics to call that statement fallacious.
(and, you did just literally and explicitly agree with it, I'll note - just what phantasm are you arguing against?)

(23-09-2015 04:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Don't know where you got this criteria from, under your criteria the Soccer world cup doesn't qualify.

It doesn't qualify because under your made up nonsensical misrepresentation of a casual aside of mine, some numbers are different?

Wait, what? I'm afraid you've lost me.

(23-09-2015 04:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(23-09-2015 03:47 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Wait. You're seriously arguing that sporting matches are strongly deterministic now? Just to keep this idiotic argument going?
Again, another example of you being a twat!

Takes one to know one! NYAH-NYAH!

(see, that's being a twat, but at this point I'm just bored with the whole discussion)

(23-09-2015 04:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(23-09-2015 03:47 PM)cjlr Wrote:  It was literally impossible for (say) the Netherlands team to have ever won the FIFA world cup, despite finished second three times?
The fact is that they didn't win. They were incapable of winning the world cup because they were beaten. This is an objective fact.

Right. There is literally no element of chance, variation, or subjectivity in any sporting match, ever.

I am going to step aside let you sit and think about that thesis for a while.

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24-09-2015, 08:39 AM
RE: Rugby World Cup 2015
(24-09-2015 12:07 AM)morondog Wrote:  ...
Anyone been following any matches?
...

Sadly, no.

I have no mechanism for seeing any of them.

All I can do is watch the highlights on the official website.

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24-09-2015, 08:42 AM
RE: Rugby World Cup 2015
(24-09-2015 06:18 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  It's the same as the Olympics or any world cup event for any sport. It's still a world event it's just that some countries are better at some sports than others. It doesn't take away the status of "world event". It's all circumstance of history and political climate.

I never said otherwise.

(24-09-2015 06:18 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Just because your national team sucks balls doesn't mean you need to rag on the competition as a whole.

Which I didn't.

I invite anyone who thinks otherwise (*cough*) to consider that I, a patriotic Canadian, used precisely the same sentiment to refer to the IIHF World Championship. And ragging on that would be pretty much an indictable offense up here.

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24-09-2015, 01:17 PM
RE: Rugby World Cup 2015
Look cjlr it's not about whether I dislike you.
I really don't like your style in disagreement because you resort to douchbaggery all the time, try and make whatever attacks you can on the person you are disagreeing with rather than focus on the disagreement.

A phrase I find useful, but admit I don't adhere to all the time is
(Speak from the "I") rather than focus on the "you"

Anyway, the crux of our argument is this statement.
(21-09-2015 10:19 AM)cjlr Wrote:  I like the part where the pool for the is so shallow the Canadian national team gets to attend. We're like the fat kid the rest of the old Commonwealth brought along just so they could pretend it's a "world" competition.

I'm just highlighting why the Rugby World Cup is a real world competition and not just a "pretend" one.

Rugby has a large following in NZ, Aus, SA, England, France and other countries. It is a professional sport in these countries and highly competitive.

I really don't see why you insist on defending your position that it is a "pretend" world competition.

Like I said, I recognise that from a Canadian's perspective you don't see any hype or media focus on it. But in other countries things are different. You fly on Air NZ and the safety video has the all blacks presenting the safety procedures while singing "men in black". When our team win a world cup some rugby folk get knighted.

You highlight criteria such as single digit of credible competitors and I also point out that only 8 teams have ever won the soccer world cup. I understand you have little interest in Rugby and I have no problems with that. But I am going to defend against your statement that RWC is only pretend.
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24-09-2015, 03:38 PM
RE: Rugby World Cup 2015
(24-09-2015 01:17 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Look cjlr it's not about whether I dislike you.
I really don't like your style in disagreement because you resort to douchbaggery all the time, try and make whatever attacks you can on the person you are disagreeing with rather than focus on the disagreement.

I rarely make personal attacks against anyone. I don't recall having done so here, for all that you called me a fallacious twat. Although I certainly resorted to sarcasm when pointing out that I think you repeatedly mischaracterised me; it's a bad habit of mine...

(24-09-2015 01:17 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Anyway, the crux of our argument is this statement.
(21-09-2015 10:19 AM)cjlr Wrote:  I like the part where the pool for the is so shallow the Canadian national team gets to attend. We're like the fat kid the rest of the old Commonwealth brought along just so they could pretend it's a "world" competition.

I'm just highlighting why the Rugby World Cup is a real world competition and not just a "pretend" one.

It still strikes me as though you're trying to be offended by this.

I explicitly said that I meant nothing pejorative. And then you agreed with what I did mean. So... ?

(24-09-2015 01:17 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Rugby has a large following in NZ, Aus, SA, England, France and other countries. It is a professional sport in these countries and highly competitive.

I really don't see why you insist on defending your position that it is a "pretend" world competition.

In the sense that most of the world doesn't partake or follow it? We've already established that that's true, while nonetheless simultaneously noting how true it may or may not be for any other sports.
(ie, it pretty much is, for most of them)

The word "world" is not a precise term. I suppose that's the ambiguity. You persist in insisting that I must have meant what I have explicitly clarified myself to have not been saying, which I suppose is your prerogative.

I wouldn't have suspected a cheap throwaway line to have provoked this whole idiotic exchange, but... here we are.

(24-09-2015 01:17 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Like I said, I recognise that from a Canadian's perspective you don't see any hype or media focus on it. But in other countries things are different. You fly on Air NZ and the safety video has the all blacks presenting the safety procedures while singing "men in black". When our team win a world cup some rugby folk get knighted.

And we're naming our new international bridge after a hockey player.

So what?

What are you trying to demonstrate to me, that you think I haven't understood or acknowledged?

(24-09-2015 01:17 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You highlight criteria such as single digit of credible competitors and I also point out that only 8 teams have ever won the soccer world cup.

And dozens have been competitive. So what?
(I reserve the right to laugh at you for saying there is no element of chance or variability in sport, though - because come on!)

(24-09-2015 01:17 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I understand you have little interest in Rugby and I have no problems with that. But I am going to defend against your statement that RWC is only pretend.

A "statement which", again, I didn't make.

Perhaps you attached the modifier to the wrong subject. Saying there is a small(er) following or few(er) competitors takes nothing away from the quality of competition among those there are. I said, and meant, no such thing. I don't know where your misunderstanding originated. Do I make myself clear?

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24-09-2015, 04:10 PM
RE: Rugby World Cup 2015
Handbags at dawn

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-09-2015, 05:54 PM
RE: Rugby World Cup 2015
(24-09-2015 03:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I rarely make personal attacks against anyone. I don't recall having done so here
It is difficult over the internet to read tones, even jokes and sarcasm.
Cultural differences also come into effect. Even though we speak English, I certainly find remarks made by NZers, Australians, even British easier to understand than those made by Americans and Canadians. It's hard to pinpoint, but I seem to, for some reason, get an incorrect understanding of remarks made by some specific Americans and Canadians.
(24-09-2015 03:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  for all that you called me a fallacious twat.
I didn't call you fallacious, I called a remark that you made fallacious, but I did call you a twat.
I have pointed out why. There are just a lot of underhanded remarks that you make in order to attempt to belittle the person you are disagreeing with. It really is iritating. I don't get that when I have strong disagreements with The Bearded Dude, But I constantly get it from you and from Chas and the worst at it was Chippy.
(24-09-2015 03:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Although I certainly resorted to sarcasm when pointing out that I think you repeatedly mischaracterised me; it's a bad habit of mine...
When people misunderstand what I state, I reclarify, I restate my position in different ways. I'm not saying that I am perfect (I certainly find myself in much more arguments than I should, so I am personally to blame too).
But you, and Chas as well, have a tendancy to assume the problem is with the person you are discussing with. You guys resort to sarcasim or just state "I didn't say that" or "show me where I said that" rather than attempt to clarify your position.
I am certainly not trying to mischaracterise anyone, I try to get meaning out of people's statements as best as I can. If I have misunderstood then help me to understand better by clarifying rather than shooting me down.

(24-09-2015 03:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  It still strikes me as though you're trying to be offended by this.
I'm not trying to be offended, I consider the statement to be demonstrably false and so I called it out and presented my case.
(24-09-2015 03:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I explicitly said that I meant nothing pejorative.
Yes, I didn't see how your disclaimer improved things.
(24-09-2015 03:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  And then you agreed with what I did mean. So... ?
Did I? I'm still not sure what you meant by your statement

(24-09-2015 03:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  In the sense that most of the world doesn't partake or follow it? We've already established that that's true, while nonetheless simultaneously noting how true it may or may not be for any other sports.
(ie, it pretty much is, for most of them)
So then why make the statement?
It seems like trolling doesn't it? I mean would it make sense for me to go into a thread regarding the Netball/Hockey/Ice Hockey/Cricket/Softball/Baseball world cup and make a claim that it is just "pretend"? What value is there in making that claim?
Just because something isn't popular in USA and/or Canada, it doesn't diminish it on a world scene. It doesn't mean we can't have a fiercly competed for International cup.

(24-09-2015 03:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  The word "world" is not a precise term. I suppose that's the ambiguity. You persist in insisting that I must have meant what I have explicitly clarified myself to have not been saying, which I suppose is your prerogative.
It's a world cup because countries submit a team to represent the country. Any country can enter but must meet certain qualifying criteria e.g. to at least provide some quality to the games.
A world cup doesn't mean that this sport is popular and important in the majority of countries in the world.
(24-09-2015 03:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I wouldn't have suspected a cheap throwaway line to have provoked this whole idiotic exchange, but... here we are.
You made one post, I responded to it, we didn't have to keep going on and on about it. But somehow we both have done so. I have felt that your sarcasim has incentivised me to defend myself. If I don't feel that I need to defend myself then I won't keep on going, especially if I've already made my point. I am happy for us to disagree on things, I don't have to win you over and get you to agree with me.
If your claim was "in Canada we don't really hear much about the RWC, it's not a thing here, i'm surprised we have a team that made it into the cup" then I wouldn't have tried to argue something. Perhaps i might have responded that Canada qualified for the cup and are an OK team but not world beaters yet, and that there has been some efforts made to grow the sport in Canada and US (the All Blacks played against US in US last year).
But when you essentially say "The RWC isn't really a world thing, its just pretending" then I have chosen to challenge that position.
(24-09-2015 03:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  And we're naming our new international bridge after a hockey player.

So what?
I'm not making claims that hockey isn't an important sport, I'm not making claims that its not hotly contested internationally, I'm not making claims that it is just pretend.
(24-09-2015 03:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  What are you trying to demonstrate to me, that you think I haven't understood or acknowledged?
I am making a case for why it isn't a pretend world cup.

(24-09-2015 03:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  And dozens have been competitive. So what?
(I reserve the right to laugh at you for saying there is no element of chance or variability in sport, though - because come on!)
And no-one has made that claim.

(24-09-2015 03:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(24-09-2015 01:17 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I understand you have little interest in Rugby and I have no problems with that. But I am going to defend against your statement that RWC is only pretend.

A "statement which", again, I didn't make.
You didn't claim that it is only pretend?
(24-09-2015 03:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Perhaps you attached the modifier to the wrong subject. Saying there is a small(er) following or few(er) competitors takes nothing away from the quality of competition among those there are. I said, and meant, no such thing.
I don't know where your misunderstanding originated.
And here you are trying to convey that the problem is me, something that I might then feel compelled to respond on to defend myself.

Look, The RWC is real, it is an international event and is a World Cup.
There are some teams which are more likely than others to win it. There are some teams which have no hope e.g. Canada. And this is similar to any World cup regardless of what sport is being played.
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24-09-2015, 09:32 PM
RE: Rugby World Cup 2015
tl;dr

so how about that Namibia game eh?
They managed to keep it under 100, well played Namibia.

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24-09-2015, 09:48 PM
RE: Rugby World Cup 2015
(24-09-2015 09:32 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  tl;dr

so how about that Namibia game eh?
They managed to keep it under 100, well played Namibia.

"and this was when grandpa scored against the best team in the world".

Priceless.

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24-09-2015, 10:40 PM
RE: Rugby World Cup 2015
(24-09-2015 09:48 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(24-09-2015 09:32 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  tl;dr

so how about that Namibia game eh?
They managed to keep it under 100, well played Namibia.

"and this was when grandpa scored against the best team in the world".

Priceless.
Seems like none of the top teams are playing all that well.

Unless of course it is that the rest of the world that is catching up and making us all less dominant.
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