Rule Change To Allow Religious Headgear...
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14-05-2017, 04:53 AM
RE: Rule Change To Allow Religious Headgear...
(13-05-2017 06:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  ... You're in Australia, several thousand km away from them. What precisely are they pushing on you? And even if you were right there, you're telling me that you are that threatened by some woman wearing a headscarf that you'd scream for her to be not allowed to play basketball, when you're not even going to get on the court with her?

Oh dear... like many others here, you're ignoring the thrust of my comments. That is, the insidious subversion—bit by tiny bit—of our sectarian processes of law and culture, and the attempted "normalisation" of a religion alien to Australia since its founding 250 years ago. We're successfully getting rid of Christianity here (from 98% initially, to 61% currently), and we certainly have no desire to replace it with Islam thank you very much.

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14-05-2017, 08:46 PM
RE: Rule Change To Allow Religious Headgear...
(14-05-2017 04:53 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Oh dear... like many others here, you're ignoring the thrust of my comments. That is, the insidious subversion—bit by tiny bit—of our sectarian processes of law and culture, and the attempted "normalisation" of a religion alien to Australia since its founding 250 years ago. We're successfully getting rid of Christianity here (from 98% initially, to 61% currently), and we certainly have no desire to replace it with Islam thank you very much.

Hiding sexism and religious fundamentalism doesn't make it go away it makes it fester. Your position is understable but incredibly counter productive. That's what we are all saying here. We don't like religious fundamentalism, thus we what it to decrease and disapear without killing or hurting anybody in the process, because we think peoples lives are valuable and important. To destroy fundamentalism, you must first break social isolation, than bring positive cross-cultural interaction and exchange. Allowing Muslim girl to play a sport, which is against their religion, while maintaining an Muslim symbol is a way to break social isolation and begin a process of cross-cultural integration. Its a process that last decades. On average it takes 75 years for a particular group to be well integrated. For some it can take only 50 years, but others will require a century. That's the speed of major social changes. You got to accept those limitations and learn how to work with them. This isn't religion creeping on secular space. It's the opposite. Muslim girls shouldn't play sports and rough house, they should be home preparing to become good housewives and these girls aren't.

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16-05-2017, 03:18 PM
RE: Rule Change To Allow Religious Headgear...
(13-05-2017 05:36 AM)SYZ Wrote:  I acknowledge that the Muslim head scarves don't favour either team Mom, but it's a classic example of Islam virtually demanding that a basically secular society accepts confrontational Islamic symbolism in an otherwise religiously neutral environment—a public basketball court.

It's another of the insidious ways that Islam attempts to integrate (not assimilate) itself into Western societies, and then later on make further unrealistic demands to alter that society in order to satisfy Islam.
Personally, that's kind of how I feel about it, too. I find it fascinating that -- especially in an atheist forum -- the seems to be a willingness to extend to Islam on the one hand, concessions that a lot of people have been actively working for many years to snatch back from Christianity.

"Blue laws", for example, which used to prohibit retail sales and alcohol use on Sundays, have been repealed by the hundreds since I was kid. The Freedom From Religion Foundation has labored tirelessly to have religious displays -- crosses, Ten Commandments monuments, etc. -- removed from public places. In my own town a 51-foot lighted cross, erected in a public park, overlooked the city for 33 yeasr, before its removal was ordered by the courts. Religious tests for holding public office have been struck down by the courts, including the Supreme Court . Many school districts have banned the wearing of religious clothing by teachers in the public schools, and the courts have upheld these bans. Even when I was a kid "religious displays" outside of a temporary instructional context, were not permitted in public schools. You could, for example, wear a crucifix necklace only if it did not show outside your clothing (ie., under your shirt). We have removed exemptions, almost exclusively granted to Christian sects, which used to allow parents to withhold medical treatment from their children on religious grounds.

After working so diligently to remove these various -- predominately Christian -- religious exemptions from the law, why do we now seem to be so busily working to create a whole new set of exemptions for Muslims?

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16-05-2017, 03:40 PM
RE: Rule Change To Allow Religious Headgear...
(16-05-2017 03:18 PM)Dr H Wrote:  After working so diligently to remove these various -- predominately Christian -- religious exemptions from the law, why do we now seem to be so busily working to create a whole new set of exemptions for Muslims?

There's a huge difference between repealing a blue law and allowing a headscarf. One is a religious minority pushing their view on others, the other is a religious minority expressing themselves. How the fuck is this so difficult?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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16-05-2017, 03:43 PM
RE: Rule Change To Allow Religious Headgear...
@Dr H

Because we must start from further away with Muslim than with Christian. first we need to create and foster a dialogue in an environment that suffer from bouts of xenophobia, sometime associated with racism. Than, we can start to make meaningfull cultural exchanges. Finally, secularisation is something we can aspire to. Treating Muslim like Christian would be a grave mistake since Christian don't suffer from xenophobia and most christian communities of the Western world have been accepted secularism as a dominent force in the public space (the Bible Belt of the United States is one of the last place where this is still an issue for a plurality of Christians).

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16-05-2017, 04:55 PM
RE: Rule Change To Allow Religious Headgear...
(14-05-2017 08:46 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Hiding sexism and religious fundamentalism doesn't make it go away it makes it fester. Your position is understable but incredibly counter productive. That's what we are all saying here. We don't like religious fundamentalism, thus we what it to decrease and disapear without killing or hurting anybody in the process, because we think peoples lives are valuable and important. To destroy fundamentalism, you must first break social isolation, than bring positive cross-cultural interaction and exchange.
Fundamentalism promotes social isolation; indeed, it often insists upon it.

Having one group of kids dress uniformly differently from their peers doesn't break social isolation; it encourages it.

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16-05-2017, 05:05 PM
RE: Rule Change To Allow Religious Headgear...
(16-05-2017 04:55 PM)Dr H Wrote:  Fundamentalism promotes social isolation; indeed, it often insists upon it.

Having one group of kids dress uniformly differently from their peers doesn't break social isolation; it encourages it.

Islamist fundamentalist girls aren't allow to play basket ball in a league. They aren't allow to play with non Muslim too. These girls are doing both, thus fundamentalism is ebbing away thanks to this measure. They aren't home, away from people different then them, doing activity allowed to girls.

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16-05-2017, 05:26 PM
RE: Rule Change To Allow Religious Headgear...
Our culture here is strong enough to withstand the "threat" presented by people wanting to wear -- yikes! -- different clothing.
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16-05-2017, 05:27 PM
RE: Rule Change To Allow Religious Headgear...
(16-05-2017 04:55 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(14-05-2017 08:46 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Hiding sexism and religious fundamentalism doesn't make it go away it makes it fester. Your position is understable but incredibly counter productive. That's what we are all saying here. We don't like religious fundamentalism, thus we what it to decrease and disapear without killing or hurting anybody in the process, because we think peoples lives are valuable and important. To destroy fundamentalism, you must first break social isolation, than bring positive cross-cultural interaction and exchange.
Fundamentalism promotes social isolation; indeed, it often insists upon it.

Having one group of kids dress uniformly differently from their peers doesn't break social isolation; it encourages it.

Seems like they're socially interacting to me, especially considering the alternatives available to a Muslin girl.

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19-05-2017, 07:48 AM
RE: Rule Change To Allow Religious Headgear...
(16-05-2017 05:05 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Islamist fundamentalist girls aren't allow to play basket ball in a league...

Yes, they are:

[Image: saudi-womens-basketball-team.jpg]


Quote:They aren't allow to play with non Muslims too...

Yes, they are:

[Image: 9ab357982797db10fe1290fbcd6b8ab5.jpg]



Quote:These girls are doing both, thus fundamentalism is ebbing away thanks to this measure...

No, it's not. Allowing Muslim girls to wear confrontational religious paraphernalia in a secular society is in actuality allowing them to support fundamentalism. If, on the other hand, fundamentalism was in fact truly ebbing away, then they'd obviously be choosing not to wear their religious rags.

Religious fundamentalism is and always has been supported by dress, iconography, art, architecture, literature etc. The mere fact that these girls choose to wear their hijabs is, in effect, saying to the world "I am a Muslim, and don't you forget it!"

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