Rule Change To Allow Religious Headgear...
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06-05-2017, 12:56 PM
RE: Rule Change To Allow Religious Headgear...
(06-05-2017 12:25 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(05-05-2017 12:46 PM)morondog Wrote:  Apparently you think that you're getting offended is grounds for trying to define how people are allowed to dress? Apparently you don't understand what non-discrimination and equal opportunity mean.

For your benefit I will educate you:
  • Non-discrimination means that you will not be targetted e.g. by cops, teachers or other people, for wearing religious dress, or conversely for not being religious.
  • Equal opportunity means that practising your religion or the lack thereof does not preclude you from economic and other opportunities.

So if I, as a woman, attempt to cross the threshold of an Islamic mosque whilst not covering my head, I'll (rightly) be refused entry because my lack of head covering is deemed "offensive" by Muslims. But, as an atheist, if I find (as is my right in a democracy) it "offensive" that women wearing hijabs come into my club basketball arena, then I'm not allowed to either complain and/or ask them to remove their head coverings?

Aren't each of these scenarios about offending a person's sensibilities? Why then are atheists/irreligious expected to be somehow less offended and suck it all up, as compared to Muslims who expect to have it all their way?

I still maintain—as with government—there must be maintained a separation of church and the rules and regulations international sports. I've also noticed this Islamic influence creeping into some beach volleyball contests in the US—of all sports!

Quote:This is not difficult, although to be fair lots of people the world over seem to love prescribing what people - most often women - shall wear or how they shall behave in order to be accepted in "their" society.

All countries and/or societies prescribe what people wear in order to comply with the normal expectations of an ordinary member of that society. That's why a woman can't can't wear a bikini on a Pakistani beach—due solely to their oppressive religion, or an Australian bloke can't skinny dip at Bondi Beach due to offending others' sensibilities.

Clubs normally have rules and regulations. If you see someone with a hijab and it's against the rules, then you might have the right to question that. But if it's just taking offense because it doesn't suit your taste, that is your problem. People can take offense at anything.

The girls in the picture you shared are in Minnesota; from what I can tell, most Minnesotans are fine with them and their culture; I am not sure why that should bother someone all the way down South in Australia. How are they affecting your atheist tastes in your local club?

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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06-05-2017, 05:51 PM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2017 05:55 PM by epronovost.)
RE: Rule Change To Allow Religious Headgear...
(06-05-2017 12:25 PM)SYZ Wrote:  So if I, as a woman, attempt to cross the threshold of an Islamic mosque whilst not covering my head, I'll (rightly) be refused entry because my lack of head covering is deemed "offensive" by Muslims. But, as an atheist, if I find (as is my right in a democracy) it "offensive" that women wearing hijabs come into my club basketball arena, then I'm not allowed to either complain and/or ask them to remove their head coverings?

This is a false equivocation. The mosque is a religious building used for religious purpose. It belongs to the Muslim community. As such, they are fully within their rights to impose a dress code since its intended to be used only by a precise group. BTW, you can go in a mosque without covering your head if you are a women. Most do cover their heads, but there is no universaly applied rules preventing it. Before hijabs, niqab and burka became very popular in the 80's, most muslim women went bare headed in mosque. In Turkey, its still not uncommon to see Muslim women bare headed, even in mosque (shoulders must be covered thow).

As an atheist (or any other religion), you do not own the basketball club or the arena, neither do you have a privileged access to it. It belongs to all community equaly and serves no other purpose than playing a sport. The basketball court belongs as much to the muslim community as the christian, jewish or atheist community. Banning a community from it on the purpose of how they look like would be a case of unecessary discrimination. If you wanted Muslim women to remove their hijab inside a Christian church or within an atheist community center, to conform to the community who owns and use this area, it would make sense, but such is not the case within public buildings and organisations.

In addition, even if you do consider that its wrong from the Muslim community to dictate a dress code within their mosque, it would necessarly mean that your dress code on a basketbal court is also wrong. This would make your argument rather hypocritical no matter how you spin it. From what I can see and how you argue, it seems you are against women and girls covering their hairs, because prudity (or Islam) offends you and nothing more. Unfortunately, Muslims and prudes can express their opinions and likes as much as you as long as they don't attempt to impose them on others.

If you are truly interested and worried about women's freedom and empowerment, you should make sure that your society provides them with the opportunities and support to try and do a lot of things. Symbols of submission and modesty are shed later than actual submission and modesty. Removing the hijab won't make women magically more assertive and powerful. We are not in a bad biblical myth in which people gain strength thanks to their hairs. Sports provides those women with a chance to interract with the wider society, develop physical aptitudes, a spirit of healthy competition and teamwork. All those things are the base rock of confidence and empowerment. Flashing hairs, absolutly not. Do you want these girls to look less like good little muslim girls or be less like good little muslim girls?

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06-05-2017, 09:59 PM
RE: Rule Change To Allow Religious Headgear...
I don't see why it matters what anyone wears on their head during sport as long as it doesn't offer advantage/disadvantage to anyone, and it doesn't cause disruption. It's pretty much a skirt-hoody. It's not even overtly religious as far as I can see. Sure, we know the background of it, but it's just some material. Anyone could wear that.

I mean, if there is a particular club which has a rule stating a certain uniform (and only that) must be worn, then that's fair enough. Wear it, or don't join. But I like this flexibility. It's reasonable accommodation, in my opinion.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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08-05-2017, 12:52 AM
RE: Rule Change To Allow Religious Headgear...
(06-05-2017 12:25 PM)SYZ Wrote:  So if I, as a woman, attempt to cross the threshold of an Islamic mosque whilst not covering my head, I'll (rightly) be refused entry because my lack of head covering is deemed "offensive" by Muslims. But, as an atheist, if I find (as is my right in a democracy) it "offensive" that women wearing hijabs come into my club basketball arena, then I'm not allowed to either complain and/or ask them to remove their head coverings?
"Your" club basketball arena? I'm sorry? Where's your name on the door? A mosque is a private building. I don't come wearing my hijab into your house, because those are your house rules. But you are claiming the right to police people's dress in a public space - or at least, a space that doesn't belong to you.

Quote:All countries and/or societies prescribe what people wear in order to comply with the normal expectations of an ordinary member of that society. That's why a woman can't can't wear a bikini on a Pakistani beach—due solely to their oppressive religion, or an Australian bloke can't skinny dip at Bondi Beach due to offending others' sensibilities.
Well, but by what right do you claim to speak for society when making your prescriptions? No one there has a problem with the kids wearing their religious dress, it's only you.

Furthermore, if Pakistani beaches forbid bikinis, and the Pakistani constitution claims to allow freedom of expression and freedom of religion, then to me that's an obvious contradiction, which means that their lawmakers full of shit. Even if their constitution doesn't provide for freedom of religion and expression, I'd still say they're full of shit, because these are kind of... human rights which I personally think should apply to all people.

Regarding Aussies on Bondi beach - well, interesting, the rule is you can't be *naked* but there's nothing saying you can't wear a giant pineapple or a picture of Christ crucified, or indeed a hijab, is there? And that would be because even though there's a rule that says you can't just do *whatever the fuck* you want, the rules are *not* supposed to single out a religion for special treatment.

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08-05-2017, 07:15 PM
RE: Rule Change To Allow Religious Headgear...
(06-05-2017 02:40 AM)morondog Wrote:  And oppositely, I'm happy to allow everything. The day some policeman tells me what to wear is the day I tell that policeman to get fucked. I think if *you* were in that position you would too.
<shrug>There are appropriate and inappropriate contexts for a lot of things. I don't have a problem with people wearing whatever they want while walking down the street, strolling through the park, or shopping at Walmart, so long as it doesn't endanger anyone around them.

But if I were about to have surgery and the doctor walked in wearing the sweats he had on during his pickup basketball game at lunchtime, that might be another issue.

Or if I was about to compete in a swimming event in which a worshiper of Neptune decided it was necessary for them to wear a wetsuit and fins.

Most sports are, and have been about a competition of body and mind against body and mind, not against equipment. There is a reason that the garb worn by participants in team sports is referred to as a uniform -- the idea being that everyone starts out more or less equal with regard to those accouterments. It's the same reason other items of competition are standardized -- one guy doesn't put a 16 pound shot, while another gets to use a 14 pound shot.

Whatever. I'm not that invested in this particular theme, other than to the extent that I see it as one of many examples of religion creeping into the public life of many people who would rather it didn't. I think society bends over backwards for religion too much as it is; I don't necessarily support bending over a little further, in either direction.

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08-05-2017, 07:32 PM
RE: Rule Change To Allow Religious Headgear...
(06-05-2017 02:45 AM)morondog Wrote:  Dr H, shall the state prescribe what is acceptable and what is not acceptable to teach your children, in the name of ensuring that you are not indoctrinating them? I mean *your* children specifically.
They do already.

If I teach my children that that God will cure their diabetes if they are worthy, and that doctors and medication are unnecessary or evil, if the state finds out, the children will be taken away by the state and I would go to jail.

If I teach my children that when they need money, it's OK to break into the neighbor's house and take whatever they find lying around, the children will be taken away by the state and I would go to jail.

If I teach my children that it's OK to have sex with their parents and the state finds out, . . . well, you get the idea.

Quote:I think plenty of people who make or are comfortable with what I think are overly intrusive laws are perfectly comfortable with them as long as they don't apply to them.
For sure. That's why you try to have the minimum necessary number of laws, and apply them equally to everybody, rather than making multiple exceptions which those who don't reap the benefits of those exceptions may feel are intrusive to them.

The question is, how do you decide where to stop -- or more importantly, who gets to decide? Suppose some parents see that the hijab is being allowed on the gym floor now, and decide that they would like to have the games opened with a Christian prayer (and this actually has come up)? Only by people who volunteer to say the prayers over the PA system, of course. Would you be OK with that?

Or, to use an earlier example, parents of a Sikh kid in middle school demand that he be allowed to carry his kirpan in school -- when no other kids are allowed to carry knifes? Could happen (and in fact, that situation has also arisen).

Who gets to decide who is worthy to receive exceptions and who isn't?

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08-05-2017, 07:36 PM
RE: Rule Change To Allow Religious Headgear...
(06-05-2017 02:46 AM)morondog Wrote:  Furthermore, how do you square prescribing what people can and cannot wear with the principle of freedom of expression?

How do you square limitations on what people can and cannot say -- e.g., shouting "fire" in a crowded theater -- with free speech?

Human beings are social creatures. When you live in a society, certain concessions must be made to the presence of other participants in that society. Even most anarchists agree with that.

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08-05-2017, 07:59 PM
RE: Rule Change To Allow Religious Headgear...
(06-05-2017 05:51 PM)epronovost Wrote:  This is a false equivocation. The mosque is a religious building used for religious purpose.
Religion is a magical belief system, unsupported by evidence, often employed to the detriment of others who do not share that magical belief system. Why should a rational person tolerate the promulgation of such irrationality?

Quote:It belongs to the Muslim community. As such, they are fully within their rights to impose a dress code since its intended to be used only by a precise group.
Sure. And the sponsors of a sport are fully within their rights to insist that participants in that sport under their auspices follow the rules of that sport -- including uniform specifications -- when they play that sport. You can't wear football cleats on the basketball court. You can't carry a baseball bat when playing soccer. If you want to wear religious garb, wear it in a religious place, not in the gym.

Quote:As an atheist (or any other religion), you do not own the basketball club or the arena, neither do you have a privileged access to it. It belongs to all community equaly and serves no other purpose than playing a sport. The basketball court belongs as much to the muslim community as the christian, jewish or atheist community. Banning a community from it on the purpose of how they look like would be a case of unecessary discrimination.
It would not be a ban because of "how they look"; it would be a ban for not following the uniform requirements which must be followed by everyone else.

Quote:If you wanted Muslim women to remove their hijab inside a Christian church or within an atheist community center, to conform to the community who owns and use this area, it would make sense, but such is not the case within public buildings and organisations.
The issue is not, as I see it, specific to this particular community center.
This is just a particular example of a general case of public support of religion.
In view of other atheist activities on this front, it's a little ironic to see so much support in this instance for public religious displays.

Nativity scenes have been removed from city and town parks, because it was deemed that they represented a public -- and hence tax-payer supported -- sanction of a particular religious view. In my own town, fire stations were not permitted to have Christmas trees for a similar reason. Not to mention the 33-year long campaign here (finally successful) to which remove an unadorned cross in a local park, on a hill overlooking the city.

You cannot single out a particular religion for exemption to public rules which are enforced against all other religions. That is discrimination.

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"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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08-05-2017, 08:04 PM
RE: Rule Change To Allow Religious Headgear...
(06-05-2017 09:59 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  It's reasonable accommodation, in my opinion.
"Reasonable accommodation" applies to physical and mental disabilities in an employment situation.

Are you suggesting that it should also apply to psychic disabilities (like religion) in public places?

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08-05-2017, 08:17 PM (This post was last modified: 08-05-2017 08:27 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Rule Change To Allow Religious Headgear...
For centuries, Christian women have been allowed to wear what is essentially THE same thing as the Muslim garb in question, in every possible public venue, with NO questions and no problems.
Yeah this IS discriminating against muslims.
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