Run The Gauntlet
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22-02-2013, 09:42 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(22-02-2013 09:29 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:And you've just avoided answering the question for the fifth time. Congratulations.

Hmmm. PJ wonders at Vosur's ill will, since Vosur is the leading TTA'er on telling everyone in the world what constitutes reasonable evidence and precisely what the Lord God Almighty has to do to make Vosur come around (a lousy relational communicatory standard, says PJ. Try telling your wife, "I'm not talking to you until you communicate with me the way I want you to"... I'm going to act as if you don't exist."

Perhaps Vosur fears I won't accept his claims that it's self-evident he exists. Bu-bu-but I told PJ, we need verifiable, substantiated evidence, and na-na-now I can't produce any so maybe I don't exist?!



Quote:It is impossible to completely 100% prove the existence of anything, since there are always wild explanations with next to no probability of being true that cannot be disproven. It is enough to provide evidence that builds a case that is beyond reasonable doubt.

Double hmmm... Then why do you ask me on this forum to prove God exists--especially since all religions handle the reasonable doubt standard well since God is invisible and most religions talk of a mystery God available only to sincere seekers and initiates? It bothers me I have to even OFFER proof of God's existence after untold billions have reported, "Come get it for yourself, sinner."

PJ's attenna (which is now his Daliesque moustache) is sensing that you have a titanic-sized double standard. What is the sound of the Titanic sinking when you're in the forest watching a tree being cut down?




Quote:Still enjoying some coffee, and some OJ too.

Triple hmmm... wondering how the coffee stayed warm for 24 hours. PJ was once vended with "Get your ice cold drinks here!" and then The Most Interesting Man In The World (on PJ's speed dial) asked in response, "Do you have any warm drinks instead, say the temperature of human urine?" He is an interesting fellow indeed.

Let's do it this way, and PJ will help your towering intellects define terms. You tell PJ what PJ needs to do to prove PJ's existence BARD, (Beyond A Reasonable Doubt or William Shakespeare) and then we'll go from there.

Okay dokey? I'm putting aside all your horse poopy about how to prove God's existence on a forum, since as materialists "you people" don't believe in spooks, spirits, or anything trusted religious associates tell you about how to live your lives, (at least for now) and you tell PJ how to prove, (excuse me, you asked me to prove God but instead, you might tell me how to give evidence I exist since nothing is ever really "proven", including reality) oops, I mean, give evidence PJ's a real Christian man and not a Poe or a figment of Chas's imagination (most doubtful since Chas prefers to confine his witticisms to the approximate length of headlines in The Times) and we'll move on.

Thanks and many props to all you LOTR fans, Gandalf (some call me Mithrandir, to the East I go not).

PS. Proof God is Jesus and exists is as near as your answering my challenge, uh, I mean, question. I've now redacted from "prove you exist" (and left the terms to you buh-buh-but you had to ask five times for a definition of terms because you were scared I'd attempt to do to big-old-you what you do to **God's children** at these forums daily, pine at them for "proof" and then trample on their pearls) to "give evidence you exist" to "you tell me to give evidence I exist".

And if you can't think of terms for how I might define my own existence to your satisfaction beyond a reasonable doubt, then kindly shut down and cease from asking believers to prove God exists on the same forum. Thanks!
I'm still just asking you what the definition is for what you want us to prove from your first post on this thread. What is the definition of "yourself" that you are looking for us to provide evidence for.

And I brewed a new pot this morning upon entering my office. Drinking Beverage

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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22-02-2013, 09:48 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(22-02-2013 09:16 AM)Azaraith Wrote:  For someone claiming to have "proof"/"evidence" of God (which would be a world first and a huge accomplishment) PleaseJesus is being predictably vague in what he considers evidence and obstinate in his refusal to define what he considers evidence.

My take is that he has nothing, his entire argument is that we can't sufficiently prove our existence, but we still believe we exist, therefore it is reasonable to believe in his deity even though he can't prove its existence in the same way we can't prove ours.

Completely ridiculous, as even if we were in a matrix or whatever scenario OP imagines as the alternative to our actually existing, his deity hasn't been proven to exist within that matrix - there's no observable proof of its existence, regardless of the conditions of our observations. If it was to exist outside of all possible observation, it definitely doesn't interact with the world and thus its existence/nonexistence is moot. We can't know anything about it and can't say we know it exists.

If it was the Christian god, it's a dick since eternally torturing people for not believing, while providing no reasonable basis for that belief, is extremely petty and sadistic. There's absolutely nothing about that god worthy of respect, let alone worship.
Hmm. Your take is wrong. I think you can sufficiently, beyond a reasonable doubt, prove your existence. Your reticence as a group to try merely underscores your (very real, I can assure you!) fears that you'll be treated as you've treated believers (C'mon, prove there's an invisible God who won't respond to us because our free will is turned from him!) but it won't be that bad... we won't curse at you, call you names--we LOVE you.

Further, I will give proof God exists rather than say, "Nanny-nanny poo-poo, you can't prove you exist and I can't prove God exists either". That would be dumb even for a hick unsophisticate like me who doesn't worship at the altar of Hitchens, Dawkins and Voltaire.

As for your Matrix point, just put in "After I die" and you'll start to get at what Pascal, right or wrong, was trying to gamble for... or we can just go back to the issue of Morpheus's sage comment: "Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself."

As for "If it was the Christian god, it's a dick since eternally torturing people for not believing, while providing no reasonable basis for that belief, is extremely petty and sadistic. There's absolutely nothing about that god worthy of respect, let alone worship." I TOTALLY agree with you. TOTALLY. Except there's reasonable basis to at least begin to trust Him. After all, he sent PJ to help. Plus (paraphrasing the scriptures here) the universe is pretty smegging large. I mean it's big times big times big. Jupiter can hold the volume of 1,000 Earths. The Sun, 1,000 Jupiters. (That means the Sun is 1,000,000 times the volume of Earth for you non-math majors.)

The distance between Earth and the Sun and between the Earth and the furthest things we can make out through Hubble rivals the distance--oh why, bother. You see, your average and even above average person looks at mountains and trees and through telescopes and microscopes and concludes, design, order, magnitude and that
there's someone watching over us. And most people believe in spirits and spooks. You may just be abnormal.

So, now we have, "God tortures people in Hell because they're abnormal." Not quite right, but close, close!

Heaven is perfection. No imperfect people can be there. Atheists cannot be in Heaven lusting after my spouse (or PJ himself, who is like an Adonis, actually) because then it's not Heaven--it's a dystopia. And for "damn sure" they're cannot be people calling God names in Heaven like [the one you used as quoted above] because that's not
nice, and not nice people aren't in Heaven.

I think the truth is people torture themselves in Hell with their own pride. It is a place of suffering, but not in the Medieval (let's make crap up and be fodder for Atheist forums hundreds of years from now Roman Catholic sense). Yeesh.

Hell is more a place where you have a length of time to think about what evidence you had and put to the side to follow your own agenda, right?
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22-02-2013, 09:53 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Quote:And I have never made the claim that my existence is self-evident, you dishonest liar.
Dishonest, no. Bad memory, sometimes. But are you the ONLY person on Earth who hasn't done a cogito ergo sum? Don't you think it's self-evident you exist? Is there something wrong with you? Oh yes, you're a materialst. Feel yourself to see if you exist, why don't you?
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22-02-2013, 09:55 AM (This post was last modified: 22-02-2013 10:01 AM by PleaseJesus.)
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Quote:I'm still just asking you what the definition is for what you want us to prove from your first post on this thread. What is the definition of "yourself" that you are looking for us to provide evidence for.
Prove that I'm a person that is distinctly not you. Now I think you're not me, that is, I'm fairly confident I'm not imagining you... demonstrate using evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that my persona on this forum is not a front for you.

OR... tell me what you demand from me to do the same from you. To prove I'm not a Poe but a real Christian (Adonis-like) man. How about that? Bloody simple enough, I think, since you've asked me and others many times to prove that an invisible God who fully reveals Himself to no one living, including Christians--what with His ability to blast out of "existence" in His presence (the Bible says no man can even approach the light inside of which the Father dwells)... exists... and that He should dance your rhumba, too.
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22-02-2013, 09:58 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Quote:Can you explain why we have to prove that we exist before you show proof of god?

Just give us the proof?

I believe I already have, but I will repeat for clarity's sake, "Why would I waste my time proving God exists, since as a Christian, I want to convert real people who exist, to forum personalities who cannot verify their existence to my satisfaction?"

Further, and this really gets at the heart of the matter, the indomitable, ever-so-wise Aseptic Skeptic got pretty close to why this thread "exists". Go reread his post. No cigar, but shockingly close. I'd buy that man a cup of "fresh, dammit, fresh, not sitting in TBD's pot" Joe anytime, any place. I'd like to find Christians that wise sometime soon!
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22-02-2013, 10:04 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Gauntlet Runners: Now A Bonus Post, With Extra Wheaties...

Trinity: I know why you’re here, Neo. I know what you’ve been doing… why you hardly sleep, why you live alone, and why night after night, you sit by your computer. You’re looking for Him. I know because I was once looking for the same thing. And when He found me, He told me I wasn’t really looking for Him. I was looking for an answer. It’s the question, Neo. It’s the question that drives us. It’s the question that brought you here. You know the question, just as I did.

Neo: What is the God-Heaven-Eternal Life-Matrix?

Trinity: The answer is out there, Neo, and it’s looking for you, and it will find you if you want it to.
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22-02-2013, 10:07 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(22-02-2013 09:58 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Can you explain why we have to prove that we exist before you show proof of god?

Just give us the proof?

I believe I already have, but I will repeat for clarity's sake, "Why would I waste my time proving God exists, since as a Christian, I want to convert real people who exist, to forum personalities who cannot verify their existence to my satisfaction?"

Further, and this really gets at the heart of the matter, the indomitable, ever-so-wise Aseptic Skeptic got pretty close to why this thread "exists". Go reread his post. No cigar, but shockingly close. I'd buy that man a cup of "fresh, dammit, fresh, not sitting in TBD's pot" Joe anytime, any place. I'd like to find Christians that wise sometime soon!
So im basically wasting my time then (well I knew that anyway but im a sucker sometimes)
You did say something quite telling though so I did get something out of it "I want to convert real people" is what you said.


May I politely say to go fuck your conversion methods elsewhere.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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22-02-2013, 10:12 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(22-02-2013 09:53 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Dishonest, no. Bad memory, sometimes. But are you the ONLY person on Earth who hasn't done a cogito ergo sum? Don't you think it's self-evident you exist? Is there something wrong with you? Oh yes, you're a materialst. Feel yourself to see if you exist, why don't you?
Constructing a straw man argument and then proceeding to attack said argument in an attempt to make your position seem stronger is actually a textbook example of dishonesty. So is the persistent refusal to answer your opponent's questions while expecting him to answer your own questions.

With that said, my existence is obviously self-evident to me, but not to others.

Evidence for the existence of people on this forum has been provided in the form of photographic evidence. You aren't even able to meet this ridiculously low standard because you're unable to give us photographic evidence of your particular god. I could even go as far as offering you a Skype voice or video call, which would prove my existence beyond a reasonable doubt. Just like in the last example, you wouldn't be able to provide me with auditory or visual evidence of your particular god.

I'd greatly appreciate it if you put some actual thought into your future posts. Your persistent question dodging, piss-poor analogies, fallacious straw man attacks, attempts at deflection and intellectual dishonesty are becoming tiresome quickly.

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22-02-2013, 10:24 AM
Re: Run The Gauntlet
Okay here's one way that I can prove I'm not you PleaseJesus: what's my uncle's name? You'd know the answer if I and you are the same. Simple, no? There's no feasible way for you to answer it correctly if you're not me and also no way not know it if you are.

Better without God, and happier too.
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22-02-2013, 10:34 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Quote:Okay here's one way that I can prove I'm not you PleaseJesus: what's my uncle's name? You'd know the answer if I and you are the same. Simple, no? There's no feasible way for you to answer it correctly if you're not me and also no way not know it if you are.
Your uncle's name is Ronald. That was easy.
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