Run The Gauntlet
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20-02-2013, 10:55 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(19-02-2013 03:31 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Of course, this was ignored elsewhere, so why not a new thread?

I'll prove to anyone on this forum that God exists--and go one better, Jesus is the Messiah and God, if they can prove that they exist.

Thumbsup Thumbsup Thank you in advance.
Okay. You've declined to restrict the working definition of "existence", so I'll pick one of my own. (Please note that this isn't just semantic games, but a critical point in whether something exists. If you wish to put forward a different working definition for existence at a later date, please do so by responding to my earlier post.) Based on this working definition of existence, I'll provide a proof of my undeniable existence. Note that this is not the same thing as an undeniable proof of my existence.

Existence traditionally connotes presence or inclusion of the element in question in a larger domain, sphere, category, or set. The word "universe" gets thrown around a lot. Defining existence, therefore, hinges on defining the universe. Again, there are multiple possible ways of defining it. I'll start with a model of subjective universes (essentially spheres of perception) and incorporate these into the notion of an absolute universe later on.

Because I'm talking about subjective universes, I can talk about MY universe as opposed to YOUR universe. My universe consists of everything I perceive, be it directly or indirectly. For example, I directly perceive various neural signals enterring my mind, and through this indirectly perceive photons striking my retina, and through those indirectly perceive the text on this laptop, and through that indirectly perceive you. Therefore, you exist in my universe.

If something in my universe itself perceives something, that something is also in my universe if I perceive its perception. For example, if my dog hears something in the middle of the night and starts barking, I haven't perceived what he's barking at, but I've registered indirectly through his perception of it that SOMETHING is out there. Or maybe it's just in my dog's head. My dog's neurotic. In either case, that something exists in some form.

Note, by the way, that while you exist in my universe, your nature is undefined. You might be an AI programmed to troll religious sites, or a delusion in my mind while I'm strapped to a gurney in an insane assylum somewhere, or simply a daydream in which I mentally simulate what a theist might do or say. But I still perceive you, therefore you exist in some manner or another. A month ago, you hadn't started posting yet, I had no cognizance of you, and thus you did not exist within my universe. But when you started posting, you moved into my universe, along with any personal history you might share.

With this definition of existence, Descartes' "I think therefore I am" is a truism. Or maybe "I perceive that I think, therefore I am." Either way, I exist in my own universe because I perceive that I do. A subjective universe requires a subject to perceive it.

Similarly, I exist in your universe because you perceive me. At least, I'm assuming that you perceive me. Come to think of it, I don't recall that you've ever replied to a single one of my posts. In any case, if you don't perceive me, by all means call me out on this point. Smile

Now, for the idea of an absolute universe. I'll provide an inclusive definition; note that this definition does not rule things out, but rather rules thing in. If someone exists in an absolute universe, their consciousness (as an element of them) also exists in that absolute universe, and thus so does everything they perceive. The entirety of their subjective universe is included with them. Again, the NATURE of the things they perceive isn't clearly defined. What they perceive might exist as they perceive it, or be an internal delusion, but in one form or another it also exists in the absolute universe.

Therefore, if you exist in some absolute universe, and you perceive me, then I exist in it as well. To deny that I exist would be to deny that you exist. But then, if you deny it, the denial would clearly be false, because if you didn't exist, there would be no you to be denying anything. Therefore, my existence is undeniable.

Have fun, and watch your step, I laid a few mines on this road.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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20-02-2013, 11:27 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Hey guys, so I just found out that I'm actually PleaseJesus.... But you'll never prove it.
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20-02-2013, 11:34 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(20-02-2013 11:27 AM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  Hey guys, so I just found out that I'm actually PleaseJesus.... But you'll never prove it.


Once you prove you're SleazeJesus, I'll prove I'm Egor.

3...2...1...Go!

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-02-2013, 11:40 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(20-02-2013 11:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-02-2013 11:27 AM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  Hey guys, so I just found out that I'm actually PleaseJesus.... But you'll never prove it.


Once you prove you're SleazeJesus, I'll prove I'm Egor.

3...2...1...Go!
We are ALL Kosh.

.... dammit, I just dated myself, didn't I.

I'M SPARTACUS!

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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20-02-2013, 12:34 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(20-02-2013 11:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  .... I'll prove I'm Egor.

Ew. Sadcryface

You might want to take a shower after that. Shy

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20-02-2013, 01:26 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Nicely played, PJ.

Of course, you know that there is no way we can prove we exist. Nobody here will prove he or she exists to your satisfaction and you know it. Therefore, you will never be accountable (on this thread) to prove the things your original post said you would prove, that god exists, Jesus is the messiah, etc., because you said you would prove them after someone proves he exists, which won't happen.

Does that mean you win?

Nope, it just means we're at exactly the same place we were without this thread.

Please tell me, PJ, how our failure to prove, via an internet forum, that we exist to a total stranger we will never meet, in any way supports your claim that god exists? Or let me put that another way: from your perspective, I might exist or I might not. You'll never know. From my perspective, god might exist or he might not. I'll never know (during my mortal life, anyway).

We both already knew this before you created this thread and now we still know it, so what has this thread done for you or for me?

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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20-02-2013, 02:53 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet



Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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20-02-2013, 06:01 PM (This post was last modified: 20-02-2013 06:34 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(20-02-2013 07:34 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:The same way I know it isn't a fairy or goblin or a ghost. Whatever entity is manipulating these electrons, exists. God, has never been demonstrated to interact with anything in our physical universe. Therefore, its existence is highly improbable.
Quick win? Not even a point on your end yet.
You ducked the second part of my post, that it might be me, the ever-lovely pj, posting as you.
Quote:The joke of this thread is that you make that a condition for you to provide proof that a god exists and that jesus/god as written in the bible is that god. Are you serious? If you had such proof, you shouldn't hold it back with the price of admission some mental masturbation. A true believer would offer it to anyone. Instead you hold it back just like the tyrants in Scientology. You sir are a fraud and have no proof.
No the point of this thread will be made evident by me as soon as anyone demonstrates proof on this thread that they exist -- I'll give you more breathing room, too. If you cannot prove to our satisfaction on this thread that you exist, you can prove that I exist. And then I'll prove God exists.
C'mon, what a small thing for you learned folks to do--prove that you exist... and then I'll prove that God exists, and as promised, beyond that fact that Jesus is the true Messiah, God and King.
Thanks!
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I exist.

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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20-02-2013, 06:20 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(20-02-2013 12:34 PM)kim Wrote:  
(20-02-2013 11:34 AM)Chas Wrote:  .... I'll prove I'm Egor.

Ew. Sadcryface

You might want to take a shower after that. Shy


Actually, I cut off my hand. Shocking

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-02-2013, 06:24 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(20-02-2013 06:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-02-2013 12:34 PM)kim Wrote:  Ew. Sadcryface

You might want to take a shower after that. Shy


Actually, I cut off my hand. Shocking

So... Are you going to turn into David Tennant now?

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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