Run The Gauntlet
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06-03-2013, 04:22 PM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2013 08:42 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(06-03-2013 03:11 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Happy to read it but 404 still, now - http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid257278
I've read the Bible multiple times in multiple versions. I'm conversant with the one in umpteen translations that says "soothsaying" rather than "witchcraft" or "false divination".
Something like a third of the OT and a fourth of the NT is composed of future predictions!

Reading the Bible is not going to help theist trolls. One must actually go to school, and learn ABOUT the culture, and society in which it was written, and why each book was written. The theist uneducated trolls who have never been to school can read the Babble until they are blue in the face, it's not going to help them, unless they actually learn the cultural and historical context in which it was produced. http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid257278

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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07-03-2013, 08:15 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Quote:The Jews are supposed to be exiled from Israel for 390 years. No wait, got to add 40 more for some reason. That makes it 430 years, starting in 536BC. So they should have re-inherited Israel in the year 106 BC, but wait, you apparently have to add in Leviticus (a separate book with a separate author) to (for some reason) multiply 360 years by 7 to get 2,520 years. And apparently you have to take into account that their years were 360 days and not 365.25 days (because god forgot to mention that) so that you have to use years in their sense (because the instructions on that are clear) so that you get 1947, but nevermind that, you actually get 1948. Which happens to coincide with the year that Israel was established as a nation.

I mean, if it can't be made any more clear than that, then I just don't know how anyone could deny the predictions of the bible.
You're missing a few things, let me help you, since I have precisely the knowledge that BB mentions... and you're obfuscating some important points. Ezekiel was told his 430 days of demonstration paralled 430 years of captivity. Atheists have noted--rightly--that removing 70 years of Diaspora in Babylon yields 360 years, after which the Jews were NOT restored to Israel. Multiple passages mention a "7 times" punishment. The Julian/Gregorian calendar is the imposition that bothers you. So many cultures had a 360-day calendar that some have theorized a different orbital period for the Moon... regardless, we have 360 years times 360 days times 7 from a day affirmed outside the Bible by archaeology = in our calendar May 15, 1948 CE! MAY 15, 1948 IS WHEN AT 12:01 BY DECLARATION OF THE U.N. Israel became a Jewish nation. The date works in the Gentile calendar (12:01 AM) and the Jewish calendar (the day began at Sunset the night before). Further, the scriptures say this is the second time the nation will be inaugurated in a single day, the first time being the Exodus. Further, ALL the nations that voted against Israel in the U.N. are ALL the nations that come against Israel in the Armageddon prophecies.
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07-03-2013, 08:53 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(07-03-2013 08:15 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:The Jews are supposed to be exiled from Israel for 390 years. No wait, got to add 40 more for some reason. That makes it 430 years, starting in 536BC. So they should have re-inherited Israel in the year 106 BC, but wait, you apparently have to add in Leviticus (a separate book with a separate author) to (for some reason) multiply 360 years by 7 to get 2,520 years. And apparently you have to take into account that their years were 360 days and not 365.25 days (because god forgot to mention that) so that you have to use years in their sense (because the instructions on that are clear) so that you get 1947, but nevermind that, you actually get 1948. Which happens to coincide with the year that Israel was established as a nation.

I mean, if it can't be made any more clear than that, then I just don't know how anyone could deny the predictions of the bible.
You're missing a few things, let me help you, since I have precisely the knowledge that BB mentions... and you're obfuscating some important points. Ezekiel was told his 430 days of demonstration paralled 430 years of captivity. Atheists have noted--rightly--that removing 70 years of Diaspora in Babylon yields 360 years, after which the Jews were NOT restored to Israel. Multiple passages mention a "7 times" punishment. The Julian/Gregorian calendar is the imposition that bothers you. So many cultures had a 360-day calendar that some have theorized a different orbital period for the Moon... regardless, we have 360 years times 360 days times 7 from a day affirmed outside the Bible by archaeology = in our calendar May 15, 1948 CE! MAY 15, 1948 IS WHEN AT 12:01 BY DECLARATION OF THE U.N. Israel became a Jewish nation. The date works in the Gentile calendar (12:01 AM) and the Jewish calendar (the day began at Sunset the night before). Further, the scriptures say this is the second time the nation will be inaugurated in a single day, the first time being the Exodus. Further, ALL the nations that voted against Israel in the U.N. are ALL the nations that come against Israel in the Armageddon prophecies.
360 days based on the orbital period of the moon? The moon cycles through a period of 28 days. That means 336 days in a year. This prediction can only work if it is A) assumed that (for some reason) god intended for us (in the future) to use the now outdated yearly cycle (360 days for some reason) to show through correlation that passages from multiple books in the bible (that have nothing in common) should be combined so as to make the date come out as 1947....no wait. Apparently that should be 1948 since 1947 doesn't work with the prediction.

The special pleading makes my head spin.

Got any others.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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07-03-2013, 09:29 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(06-03-2013 03:51 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The Jews are supposed to be exiled from Israel for 390 years. No wait, got to add 40 more for some reason. That makes it 430 years, starting in 536BC. So they should have re-inherited Israel in the year 106 BC, but wait, you apparently have to add in Leviticus (a separate book with a separate author) to (for some reason) multiply 360 years by 7 to get 2,520 years. And apparently you have to take into account that their years were 360 days and not 365.25 days (because god forgot to mention that) so that you have to use years in their sense (because the instructions on that are clear) so that you get 1947, but nevermind that, you actually get 1948. Which happens to coincide with the year that Israel was established as a nation.

I mean, if it can't be made any more clear than that, then I just don't know how anyone could deny the predictions of the bible.
Yep, you gotta jump through a lot of hoops to make that "prediction" turn out to be true. To be fair, some of those hoops might kinda make a little sense. So let's suppose that it's all true. Let's suppose that this whole prophecy, including all the extra calisthenics necessary to make it work, is completely true. What does it prove?

It might prove that some ancient guy (guys, since it's multiple bible books) could mysteriously predict the future with amazing accuracy.
It might prove that some ancient guy was given knowledge of the future, but who or what gave him that knowledge? What if it was a time traveler, or a genie, or Allah? Maybe it was Hari Seldon using psychohistory.
It might prove that some modern guy can work the numbers and combine multiple things from the bible in a way to make it look like it fits reality (but what happens if we leave out one of the hoops, or add one more - then it stops fitting reality really fast).

What it doesn't prove is God. Even if the whole thing is true, nowhere does this mean that Yahweh is real and fed that knowledge to the author(s) of the relevant books in the bible. I know, you think it does, but consider that for an omnipotent, omniscient superbeing, Yahweh sure has a difficult time communicating clearly.

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07-03-2013, 10:22 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Quote:360 days based on the orbital period of the moon? The moon cycles through a period of 28 days. That means 336 days in a year. This prediction can only work if it is A) assumed that (for some reason) god intended for us (in the future) to use the now outdated yearly cycle (360 days for some reason) to show through correlation that passages from multiple books in the bible (that have nothing in common) should be combined so as to make the date come out as 1947....no wait. Apparently that should be 1948 since 1947 doesn't work with the prediction.

The special pleading makes my head spin.

Got any others.
What? I mentioned the orbital period in my thread. The ancient Israelites used a 360-day calendar. We need to interpolate our calendar to match May 14/15 1948 CE with the Jewish calendar. You can do the same with a Mayan calendar for all I care--it's the SAME DAY. Return from Disapora + 360 years of 360 days each (unless you're an ignoramus, and you aren't, you know darn well EVERY biblical date is the 360-day calendar) * 7 = May 15, 1948 AD.
Quote:Yep, you gotta jump through a lot of hoops to make that "prediction" turn out to be true. To be fair, some of those hoops might kinda make a little sense. So let's suppose that it's all true. Let's suppose that this whole prophecy, including all the extra calisthenics necessary to make it work, is completely true. What does it prove?

It might prove that some ancient guy (guys, since it's multiple bible books) could mysteriously predict the future with amazing accuracy.
It might prove that some ancient guy was given knowledge of the future, but who or what gave him that knowledge? What if it was a time traveler, or a genie, or Allah? Maybe it was Hari Seldon using psychohistory.
It might prove that some modern guy can work the numbers and combine multiple things from the bible in a way to make it look like it fits reality (but what happens if we leave out one of the hoops, or add one more - then it stops fitting reality really fast).

What it doesn't prove is God. Even if the whole thing is true, nowhere does this mean that Yahweh is real and fed that knowledge to the author(s) of the relevant books in the bible. I know, you think it does, but consider that for an omnipotent, omniscient superbeing, Yahweh sure has a difficult time communicating clearly.
Now, then, Aseptic, all we need is... wait for it... context. WHY did this ancient time traveler put this and other astounding prophecies in the HOLY BIBLE? I've considered your line of reasoning before and presumed an alien intelligence was seeking to shepherd human culture towards non-destructive ends, and then was left with a moral accountability and little else until I realized these alien time travelers could look ahead to foretell Armageddon and other human judgments... ! Wow. But it's the love of Jesus Christ I find compelling. Not just the gospel story that Hitchens found upsetting but the love of Jesus today, to me, to you...
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07-03-2013, 10:30 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
It actually comes out as 1947. But never-mind that apparently. Also, 0.4 of a 360 day year would mean 144 days in (as in that it comes out as 2483.8 calender years - 536.4) . Which puts the date as May 24th, not May 15th. If you do it off of the 365.25 day calender, it would be 146 days in and that would make it May 26th. Neither of those are May 15th (in case you think me an idiot and unable to recognize the difference between them).

The dates don't match. It requires special pleading to find a way to make them close. It is bullshit at its finest. Why not just write it down as (The United Nations of the World will re-establish Israel 2 years after the close of a second World War?)

Once again, got any others?

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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07-03-2013, 11:01 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Quote:It actually comes out as 1947. But never-mind that apparently. Also, 0.4 of a 360 day year would mean 144 days in (as in that it comes out as 2483.8 calender years - 536.4) . Which puts the date as May 24th, not May 15th. If you do it off of the 365.25 day calender, it would be 146 days in and that would make it May 26th. Neither of those are May 15th (in case you think me an idiot and unable to recognize the difference between them).

The dates don't match. It requires special pleading to find a way to make them close. It is bullshit at its finest. Why not just write it down as (The United Nations of the World will re-establish Israel 2 years after the close of a second World War?)

Once again, got any others?
I don't have the Excel spreadsheet I made any longer, but I looked at leap years and etc. and the dates add. But let's go your route for a bit, why not? Someone wrote in the Bible how Israel would be in diaspora over 2,400 years and then recognized as a nation for the second time in ONE DAY as a Jewish nation and were off by a year. Oh yeah, Nostradamus and everyone else is really on a par here! And the Bible does mention terrorism, the Cold War and the holocausts of the 20th Century, say some scholars regarding Matthew 24!
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07-03-2013, 11:18 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(07-03-2013 11:01 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:It actually comes out as 1947. But never-mind that apparently. Also, 0.4 of a 360 day year would mean 144 days in (as in that it comes out as 2483.8 calender years - 536.4) . Which puts the date as May 24th, not May 15th. If you do it off of the 365.25 day calender, it would be 146 days in and that would make it May 26th. Neither of those are May 15th (in case you think me an idiot and unable to recognize the difference between them).

The dates don't match. It requires special pleading to find a way to make them close. It is bullshit at its finest. Why not just write it down as (The United Nations of the World will re-establish Israel 2 years after the close of a second World War?)

Once again, got any others?
I don't have the Excel spreadsheet I made any longer, but I looked at leap years and etc. and the dates add. But let's go your route for a bit, why not? Someone wrote in the Bible how Israel would be in diaspora over 2,400 years and then recognized as a nation for the second time in ONE DAY as a Jewish nation and were off by a year. Oh yeah, Nostradamus and everyone else is really on a par here! And the Bible does mention terrorism, the Cold War and the holocausts of the 20th Century, say some scholars regarding Matthew 24!
No idea how any sensible person would start making those claims out of Matthew 24.. It's the most generic of generic passages, Jesus says bad things will happen, nations will fight nations, earthquakes will happen, and the worst of times will be had...(Things that ALWAYS happen and always have happened.) People make connections with prophecy to anything they can grasp as close. That's why for 2000 years people have been predicting the end is near, these signs all add up. Humans make connections out of details it's well known.

Even if it was clear that it is saying the prophecy was to happen in 2400 years.. That was well known to the exact people interpreting words that and deliberately trying to make that prophecy true. It's not a coiencidence or unbelievable occurrence that Israel was announced as back in one day. It was an intentional act to make it prophetic by following what was already written.

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07-03-2013, 11:37 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(07-03-2013 11:01 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:It actually comes out as 1947. But never-mind that apparently. Also, 0.4 of a 360 day year would mean 144 days in (as in that it comes out as 2483.8 calender years - 536.4) . Which puts the date as May 24th, not May 15th. If you do it off of the 365.25 day calender, it would be 146 days in and that would make it May 26th. Neither of those are May 15th (in case you think me an idiot and unable to recognize the difference between them).

The dates don't match. It requires special pleading to find a way to make them close. It is bullshit at its finest. Why not just write it down as (The United Nations of the World will re-establish Israel 2 years after the close of a second World War?)

Once again, got any others?
I don't have the Excel spreadsheet I made any longer, but I looked at leap years and etc. and the dates add. But let's go your route for a bit, why not? Someone wrote in the Bible how Israel would be in diaspora over 2,400 years and then recognized as a nation for the second time in ONE DAY as a Jewish nation and were off by a year. Oh yeah, Nostradamus and everyone else is really on a par here! And the Bible does mention terrorism, the Cold War and the holocausts of the 20th Century, say some scholars regarding Matthew 24!
The spreadsheet is irrelevant. The number of years comes out to calculate a date of 1947.4 CE. But that is pleaded away to be 1948.4 CE, under the claim that there is no year 0, except that can't actually exist. If time moves forward, then anything we consider to be BC (BCE now), is counting down, so that the final year of the BCE calender, is counting down to 0.

-1.9 -> -1.8 ->-1.7 -> -1.6 ->-1.5 -> -1.4 ->-1.3 -> -1.2 ->-1.1 -> -1.0 -> -0.9 ->-0.8 ->-0.7 ->-0.6 ->-0.5 ->-0.4 ->-0.3 ->-0.2 ->-0.1 ->0 -> 0.1-> 0.2

But, in any event, I'll ignore that and assume that whoever calculated the dates on that pdf, got the number of years right so that it comes out to 1947.4 CE. 365 days * 0.4 = 146 days into the year. If you use 360 days for the year * 0.4 = 144 days into the year. Which means that (if the bible were in fact trying to predict a date), those dates are between May 24th to May 26th, not May 15th.


As for generic predictions of (bad stuff happens), I predict bad stuff will continue to happen. I can make a series of vague predictions (My 'North Korea is best Korea' thread for example) and claim sooth-saying properties if something similar to what I predict happens.

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07-03-2013, 12:19 PM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2013 12:40 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Run The Gauntlet
All such nonsense and "bible code" crap. Look at the big picture. There is nothing ... NOT ONE THING in the Bible that did not come directly from it's culture. Not one thing that was not known by everyone IN the culture. Nothing revealed, nothing unique. Nothing. If it did have "supernatural" origin, there woiuld be *something* that was unique and not completely, absolutley known by everyone IN the culture. It is of 100% human invention. All the laws, all the customs, all the cultural prescriptions and proscriptions. All 100% totally dependent on LOCAL human custom, and culture.
(And obviously, the theist troll did NOT know what I was talking about, as he continues the fallacy of "prophesy as fortune telling".)
There is nothing unique about bible predictions. Many humans have done predictions that can be seen to have happened, such as Nostradamus. Is HE a "prophet". It's a completely capritious choice of which fortune-teller to accept as a teller of the future. In Hebrew culture a phrophet was a "mouth-piece" to the people of their own day. It was an office that went back to at leat the time of Deborah. It had NOTHING to do with the predictio of the future. That is a completely modern invention, and mis-interpretation, and ignorance of the ancient Near East culture. It's an attempt to "validate" belief, and support beliefs by "proofs" of things which can be seen to have come true. Over and over there are predictions that did NOT come true, or were later proven to be false. They ignore all these. For example, the covenant with Noah was supposed to have been the last one. Do they ever talk aboout that ? Nope. It's all utter bullshit.

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