Run The Gauntlet
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07-03-2013, 01:02 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Quote:As for generic predictions of (bad stuff happens), I predict bad stuff will continue to happen. I can make a series of vague predictions (My 'North Korea is best Korea' thread for example) and claim sooth-saying properties if something similar to what I predict happens.
Again, taking your issues as factual, we have a prophecy that Israel will in the future be scattered and restored to their land 2,500 years later--in a single day receiving "ownership" of that land--within 11 days. But which is it? That the prophecies of the Bible are false (TBD) or that prophets of the Bible encouraged their listeners but did not predict the future (BB)?
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07-03-2013, 01:05 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
BB:
Nostradamus and others have been credited with under 1% accuracy? Do you know the number for Bible accuracy in fulfilled predictions? And there are numerous scriptures, I've read hundreds of them for myself, that show uncanny accuracy in the sciences and natural law. Finally, I'll simply refute you by asking for your source of special knowledge re: the Bible and its culture(s).
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07-03-2013, 01:41 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(07-03-2013 01:02 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:As for generic predictions of (bad stuff happens), I predict bad stuff will continue to happen. I can make a series of vague predictions (My 'North Korea is best Korea' thread for example) and claim sooth-saying properties if something similar to what I predict happens.
Again, taking your issues as factual, we have a prophecy that Israel will in the future be scattered and restored to their land 2,500 years later--in a single day receiving "ownership" of that land--within 11 days. But which is it? That the prophecies of the Bible are false (TBD) or that prophets of the Bible encouraged their listeners but did not predict the future (BB)?
And now comes the admission of "within 11 days" when it was actually within a year and 11 days. So, it goes from right-on, to close, to not as close.

So, Pj. Do. You. Have. Any. Other. Prophecies?

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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07-03-2013, 02:09 PM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2013 02:35 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(07-03-2013 01:05 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  BB:
Nostradamus and others have been credited with under 1% accuracy? Do you know the number for Bible accuracy in fulfilled predictions? And there are numerous scriptures, I've read hundreds of them for myself, that show uncanny accuracy in the sciences and natural law. Finally, I'll simply refute you by asking for your source of special knowledge re: the Bible and its culture(s).

Nope. You have to provide ONE piece of information or any piece of knowledge that did NOT exist in the culture. Fail again, SexuallyPleasingJebus, theist troll extrrodinairre. Prophesy is N)OT prdiction, as I have pointed out, and you have not refuted. The business of prophesy as fortune telling is ignorance of the office, and the Bible, and it's culture. My "special knowledge", is not special. I am a PhD candidate in Biblical Studies/Ancient Near Eastern Studies. Where is YOUR PhD from ?
http://www.haydid.org/prophecy.htm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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07-03-2013, 02:56 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Arrgh. The haydid site was an awful one to produce. It read, "By my count there are 661 verses in the Bible that deal with prophets, prophesy, or prophesying, yet we seem to know little about the subject. 1 Corinthians 12 : 1 says; "But, brothers, I do not want you to go on being ignorant about the things of the Spirit." Do not be offended by the idea of being ignorant. We are all ignorant, just about different things."

Bad count. I already cited the fact that something close to 30% of the ENTIRE Bible is forth-telling! Here's another passage where you can tell me why this is NOT future prophecy:

And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying,
“We will eat our own food and wear our own apparel;
Only let us be called by your name,
To take away our reproach.”

2 In that day the Branch of the Lord shall be beautiful and glorious;
And the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and appealing
For those of Israel who have escaped.
3 And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. 4 When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning, 5 then the Lord will create above every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and above her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night. For over all the glory there will be a covering. 6 And there will be a tabernacle for shade in the daytime from the heat, for a place of refuge, and for a shelter from storm and rain. - [Isaiah 4]

Perhaps you will tell us all what "then" and "in that day" and "there will be" and "when" and "it shall come to pass" means... I'm delighted you are pursuing a PhD in your studies. I have a mere Bachelor's of Religion from a secular university with 30 credits in world religions and NT/OT culture studies.... probably earned before you were born.
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07-03-2013, 02:58 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Quote:And now comes the admission of "within 11 days" when it was actually within a year and 11 days. So, it goes from right-on, to close, to not as close.

So, Pj. Do. You. Have. Any. Other. Prophecies?
Here's a few, thanks:
If the prophecies about the Messiah were not in fact fulfilled through Jesus of Nazareth, then the New Testament writers, all of them Jews, invented an elaborate story with details created to fit the Messianic prophecies. It is hard to understand why they would have bothered. They gained nothing out of it and, instead, attracted persecution.
If Jesus did not fulfill the Hebrew Scriptures, then the Messiah is still to come and His life and deeds must match these prophecies.

The Messiah would be born of a virgin:
... the Lord Himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel.
~ Isaiah 7:14

Jesus was born of a virgin:
This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
~ Matthew.1:18 (see also The Messiah would be the Son of God:
I will proclaim the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.’
~ Psalms 2:7 (see also The Messiah would be a descendant of Abraham:
The Lord had said to Abram, “... all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”
~ Genesis 12:1-3 (see also
The Messiah would be a descendant of Judah:
The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until He comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is His.
~ Genesis 49:10 (see also
The Messiah would be a descendant of Jesse:
A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit ... In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to Him, and His place of rest will be glorious.
~ Isaiah 11:1,10

Jesus is a descendant of Jesse:
... and Jesse the father of King David ...
~ Matthew 1:6 (see also
The Messiah would be a descendant of King David:
“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a king who will reign wisely ...”
~ Jeremiah 23:5

Jesus is a descendant of David:
A record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham ...
... and Jesse the father of King David ...
~ Matthew 1:1,6 (see also
The Messiah would be called Lord:
Of David. A psalm. The Lord says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”
~ Psalms 110:1 (see also
The Messiah would have pre-existence:
The Lord brought Me forth as the first of His works, before His deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
~ Proverbs 8:22-23

Jesus had pre-existence:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
~ John 1:1-3 (see also
The Messiah would have the anointing of God’s Spirit:
Here is My servant, whom I uphold, My chosen one in whom I delight; I will put My Spirit on Him and He will bring justice to the nations.
~ Isaiah 42:1 (see also
The Messiah would be preceded by a messenger:
“See, I will send My messenger, who will prepare the way before Me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to His temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.
~ Malachi 3:1 (see also
The Messiah would perform miracles:
“... your God will come ... He will come to save you.” Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy ...
~ Isaiah 35:4-6 (see also
The Messiah would be a stumbling stone for Israel:
... He will be a sanctuary; but for both houses of Israel He will be a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. And for the people of Jerusalem He will be a trap and a snare. Many of them will stumble; they will fall and be broken, they will be snared and captured.
~ Isaiah 8:14-15

Jesus was a stumbling stone for the Jews who rejected Him:
For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in Him will never be put to shame.” Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone,” and, “A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.”
~ 1 Peter 2:6-8 (see also
The Messiah would be a light to the gentiles:
...The Lord says – He who formed Me in the womb to be His servant to bring Jacob back to Him and gather Israel to Himself ... “It is too small a thing for You to be My servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make You a light for the Gentiles, that You may bring My salvation to the ends of the earth.
~ Isaiah 49:5-6 (see also
The Messiah would be raised from the dead:
... You will not abandon Me to the grave, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.
~ Psalms 16:10 (see also
The Messiah would be betrayed by a friend:
Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
~ Psalms 41:9 (see also
The Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver:
I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said to me, ‘Throw it to the potter’ – the handsome price at which they priced Me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.
~ Zechariah 11:12-13

Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver:
When Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood” ... Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests ... decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field ...
~ Matthew 27:3-7 (see also
The Messiah would be beaten and spat upon:
I offered My back to those who beat Me, My cheeks to those who pulled out My beard; I did not hide My face from mocking and spitting.
~ Isaiah 50:6 (see also
The Messiah would be rejected by His own people:
I am a stranger to My brothers, an alien to My own mother’s sons ...
~ Psalms 69:8 (see also
The Messiah would suffer thirst and be given vinegar to drink:
They put gall in My food and gave Me vinegar for My thirst.
~ Psalms 69:21 (see also Psalms 22:15-16)

Psalms 22:15-16
“My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and My tongue sticks to the roof of My mouth; You lay Me in the dust of death. Dogs have surrounded Me; a band of evil men has encircled Me, they have pierced My hands and My feet.”


Jesus was thirsty and was given vinegar to drink:
Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips.
~ John 19:28-29

The Messiah’s bones would not be broken:
... He protects all His bones, not one of them will be broken.
~ Psalms 34:20

Jesus’ bones were not broken:
The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. But when they came to Jesus and found that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
~ John 19:32-33

The Messiah would be pierced:
I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on Me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for Him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
~ Zechariah 12:10

Jesus was pierced:
Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
~ John 19:34

The Messiah would be buried in a rich man’s tomb:
He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His death...
~ Isaiah 53:9

Jesus was buried in a rich man’s tomb:
As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away.
~ Matthew 27:57-60
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07-03-2013, 03:02 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(07-03-2013 02:56 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Arrgh. The haydid site was an awful one to produce. It read, "By my count there are 661 verses in the Bible that deal with prophets, prophesy, or prophesying, yet we seem to know little about the subject. 1 Corinthians 12 : 1 says; "But, brothers, I do not want you to go on being ignorant about the things of the Spirit." Do not be offended by the idea of being ignorant. We are all ignorant, just about different things."

Bad count. I already cited the fact that something close to 30% of the ENTIRE Bible is forth-telling! Here's another passage where you can tell me why this is NOT future prophecy:

And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying,
“We will eat our own food and wear our own apparel;
Only let us be called by your name,
To take away our reproach.”

2 In that day the Branch of the Lord shall be beautiful and glorious;
And the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and appealing
For those of Israel who have escaped.
3 And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. 4 When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning, 5 then the Lord will create above every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and above her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night. For over all the glory there will be a covering. 6 And there will be a tabernacle for shade in the daytime from the heat, for a place of refuge, and for a shelter from storm and rain. - [Isaiah 4]

Perhaps you will tell us all what "then" and "in that day" and "there will be" and "when" and "it shall come to pass" means... I'm delighted you are pursuing a PhD in your studies. I have a mere Bachelor's of Religion from a secular university with 30 credits in world religions and NT/OT culture studies.... probably earned before you were born.
From biblestudytools.com
"This first verse belongs to the third chapter. When the troubles should come upon the land, as the unmarried state was deemed reproachful among the Jews, these women would act contrary to common usage, and seek husbands for themselves."



Seven women were going to get married. No prophecy. No doubt you think this foretells women gaining equal rights among men? Why then (if it is in the bible) would any woman wait or any man stand in their way? And is this strictly about the US? Other cultures (non-western cultures) did not treat women as such crap anyways.


And apparently your degree has not conferred upon you the ability to provide adequate citations or even proof articles that you yourself provide.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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07-03-2013, 03:05 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(07-03-2013 02:58 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:And now comes the admission of "within 11 days" when it was actually within a year and 11 days. So, it goes from right-on, to close, to not as close.

So, Pj. Do. You. Have. Any. Other. Prophecies?
Here's a few, thanks:
If the prophecies about the Messiah were not in fact fulfilled through Jesus of Nazareth, then the New Testament writers, all of them Jews, invented an elaborate story with details created to fit the Messianic prophecies. It is hard to understand why they would have bothered. They gained nothing out of it and, instead, attracted persecution.
If Jesus did not fulfill the Hebrew Scriptures, then the Messiah is still to come and His life and deeds must match these prophecies.

The Messiah would be born of a virgin:
... the Lord Himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel.
~ Isaiah 7:14

Jesus was born of a virgin:
This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
~ Matthew.1:18 (see also The Messiah would be the Son of God:
I will proclaim the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.’
~ Psalms 2:7 (see also The Messiah would be a descendant of Abraham:
The Lord had said to Abram, “... all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”
~ Genesis 12:1-3 (see also
The Messiah would be a descendant of Judah:
The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until He comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is His.
~ Genesis 49:10 (see also
The Messiah would be a descendant of Jesse:
A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit ... In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to Him, and His place of rest will be glorious.
~ Isaiah 11:1,10

Jesus is a descendant of Jesse:
... and Jesse the father of King David ...
~ Matthew 1:6 (see also
The Messiah would be a descendant of King David:
“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a king who will reign wisely ...”
~ Jeremiah 23:5

Jesus is a descendant of David:
A record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham ...
... and Jesse the father of King David ...
~ Matthew 1:1,6 (see also
The Messiah would be called Lord:
Of David. A psalm. The Lord says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”
~ Psalms 110:1 (see also
The Messiah would have pre-existence:
The Lord brought Me forth as the first of His works, before His deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
~ Proverbs 8:22-23

Jesus had pre-existence:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
~ John 1:1-3 (see also
The Messiah would have the anointing of God’s Spirit:
Here is My servant, whom I uphold, My chosen one in whom I delight; I will put My Spirit on Him and He will bring justice to the nations.
~ Isaiah 42:1 (see also
The Messiah would be preceded by a messenger:
“See, I will send My messenger, who will prepare the way before Me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to His temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.
~ Malachi 3:1 (see also
The Messiah would perform miracles:
“... your God will come ... He will come to save you.” Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy ...
~ Isaiah 35:4-6 (see also
The Messiah would be a stumbling stone for Israel:
... He will be a sanctuary; but for both houses of Israel He will be a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. And for the people of Jerusalem He will be a trap and a snare. Many of them will stumble; they will fall and be broken, they will be snared and captured.
~ Isaiah 8:14-15

Jesus was a stumbling stone for the Jews who rejected Him:
For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in Him will never be put to shame.” Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone,” and, “A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.”
~ 1 Peter 2:6-8 (see also
The Messiah would be a light to the gentiles:
...The Lord says – He who formed Me in the womb to be His servant to bring Jacob back to Him and gather Israel to Himself ... “It is too small a thing for You to be My servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make You a light for the Gentiles, that You may bring My salvation to the ends of the earth.
~ Isaiah 49:5-6 (see also
The Messiah would be raised from the dead:
... You will not abandon Me to the grave, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.
~ Psalms 16:10 (see also
The Messiah would be betrayed by a friend:
Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
~ Psalms 41:9 (see also
The Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver:
I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said to me, ‘Throw it to the potter’ – the handsome price at which they priced Me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.
~ Zechariah 11:12-13

Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver:
When Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood” ... Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests ... decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field ...
~ Matthew 27:3-7 (see also
The Messiah would be beaten and spat upon:
I offered My back to those who beat Me, My cheeks to those who pulled out My beard; I did not hide My face from mocking and spitting.
~ Isaiah 50:6 (see also
The Messiah would be rejected by His own people:
I am a stranger to My brothers, an alien to My own mother’s sons ...
~ Psalms 69:8 (see also
The Messiah would suffer thirst and be given vinegar to drink:
They put gall in My food and gave Me vinegar for My thirst.
~ Psalms 69:21 (see also Psalms 22:15-16)

Psalms 22:15-16
“My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and My tongue sticks to the roof of My mouth; You lay Me in the dust of death. Dogs have surrounded Me; a band of evil men has encircled Me, they have pierced My hands and My feet.”


Jesus was thirsty and was given vinegar to drink:
Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips.
~ John 19:28-29

The Messiah’s bones would not be broken:
... He protects all His bones, not one of them will be broken.
~ Psalms 34:20

Jesus’ bones were not broken:
The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. But when they came to Jesus and found that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
~ John 19:32-33

The Messiah would be pierced:
I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on Me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for Him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
~ Zechariah 12:10

Jesus was pierced:
Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
~ John 19:34

The Messiah would be buried in a rich man’s tomb:
He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His death...
~ Isaiah 53:9

Jesus was buried in a rich man’s tomb:
As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away.
~ Matthew 27:57-60
Holy shit that is stupid. Are you actually asking how is it possible that prophecies were supposedly fulfilled by a person that may not have existed? The possibility that the stories were bullshit and exaggerated does not even cross your mind?

That book, can't prove itself. That is so circular, it makes my head spin.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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07-03-2013, 03:30 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
If we take 4:1 as the end of chapter 3, we have future telling prophecies (different) for the rest of Isaiah 4. As for the circular nature of Jesus being the Christ in fulfillment of prophecy, I've already on other threads spoken about the 70 years' captivity prophecy, which dates are available to you in archaeology. And the dry bones of Ezekiel, without spirit in their lives, is the modern non-Messianic Israel. I'm not saying this is my smoking gun proof, but the nation of Israel is a pretty large piece of empirical evidence!
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07-03-2013, 03:50 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
This site is called "Judaism 101":
http://www.jewfaq.org/prophet.htm
In case you want to reiterate the cultural context that Jewish prophets are not foretellers... thanks.
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