Run The Gauntlet
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07-03-2013, 04:32 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(07-03-2013 02:58 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:And now comes the admission of "within 11 days" when it was actually within a year and 11 days. So, it goes from right-on, to close, to not as close.

So, Pj. Do. You. Have. Any. Other. Prophecies?
Here's a few, thanks:
If the prophecies about the Messiah were not in fact fulfilled through Jesus of Nazareth, then the New Testament writers, all of them Jews, invented an elaborate story with details created to fit the Messianic prophecies. It is hard to understand why they would have bothered. They gained nothing out of it and, instead, attracted persecution.
If Jesus did not fulfill the Hebrew Scriptures, then the Messiah is still to come and His life and deeds must match these prophecies.

The Messiah would be born of a virgin:
... the Lord Himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel.
~ Isaiah 7:14

Jesus was born of a virgin:
This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
~ Matthew.1:18 (see also The Messiah would be the Son of God:
I will proclaim the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.’
~ Psalms 2:7 (see also The Messiah would be a descendant of Abraham:
The Lord had said to Abram, “... all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”
~ Genesis 12:1-3 (see also
The Messiah would be a descendant of Judah:
The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until He comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is His.
~ Genesis 49:10 (see also
The Messiah would be a descendant of Jesse:
A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit ... In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to Him, and His place of rest will be glorious.
~ Isaiah 11:1,10

Jesus is a descendant of Jesse:
... and Jesse the father of King David ...
~ Matthew 1:6 (see also
The Messiah would be a descendant of King David:
“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a king who will reign wisely ...”
~ Jeremiah 23:5

Jesus is a descendant of David:
A record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham ...
... and Jesse the father of King David ...
~ Matthew 1:1,6 (see also
The Messiah would be called Lord:
Of David. A psalm. The Lord says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”
~ Psalms 110:1 (see also
The Messiah would have pre-existence:
The Lord brought Me forth as the first of His works, before His deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
~ Proverbs 8:22-23

Jesus had pre-existence:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
~ John 1:1-3 (see also
The Messiah would have the anointing of God’s Spirit:
Here is My servant, whom I uphold, My chosen one in whom I delight; I will put My Spirit on Him and He will bring justice to the nations.
~ Isaiah 42:1 (see also
The Messiah would be preceded by a messenger:
“See, I will send My messenger, who will prepare the way before Me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to His temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.
~ Malachi 3:1 (see also
The Messiah would perform miracles:
“... your God will come ... He will come to save you.” Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy ...
~ Isaiah 35:4-6 (see also
The Messiah would be a stumbling stone for Israel:
... He will be a sanctuary; but for both houses of Israel He will be a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. And for the people of Jerusalem He will be a trap and a snare. Many of them will stumble; they will fall and be broken, they will be snared and captured.
~ Isaiah 8:14-15

Jesus was a stumbling stone for the Jews who rejected Him:
For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in Him will never be put to shame.” Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone,” and, “A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.”
~ 1 Peter 2:6-8 (see also
The Messiah would be a light to the gentiles:
...The Lord says – He who formed Me in the womb to be His servant to bring Jacob back to Him and gather Israel to Himself ... “It is too small a thing for You to be My servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make You a light for the Gentiles, that You may bring My salvation to the ends of the earth.
~ Isaiah 49:5-6 (see also
The Messiah would be raised from the dead:
... You will not abandon Me to the grave, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.
~ Psalms 16:10 (see also
The Messiah would be betrayed by a friend:
Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
~ Psalms 41:9 (see also
The Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver:
I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said to me, ‘Throw it to the potter’ – the handsome price at which they priced Me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.
~ Zechariah 11:12-13

Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver:
When Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood” ... Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests ... decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field ...
~ Matthew 27:3-7 (see also
The Messiah would be beaten and spat upon:
I offered My back to those who beat Me, My cheeks to those who pulled out My beard; I did not hide My face from mocking and spitting.
~ Isaiah 50:6 (see also
The Messiah would be rejected by His own people:
I am a stranger to My brothers, an alien to My own mother’s sons ...
~ Psalms 69:8 (see also
The Messiah would suffer thirst and be given vinegar to drink:
They put gall in My food and gave Me vinegar for My thirst.
~ Psalms 69:21 (see also Psalms 22:15-16)

Psalms 22:15-16
“My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and My tongue sticks to the roof of My mouth; You lay Me in the dust of death. Dogs have surrounded Me; a band of evil men has encircled Me, they have pierced My hands and My feet.”


Jesus was thirsty and was given vinegar to drink:
Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips.
~ John 19:28-29

The Messiah’s bones would not be broken:
... He protects all His bones, not one of them will be broken.
~ Psalms 34:20

Jesus’ bones were not broken:
The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. But when they came to Jesus and found that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
~ John 19:32-33

The Messiah would be pierced:
I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on Me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for Him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
~ Zechariah 12:10

Jesus was pierced:
Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
~ John 19:34

The Messiah would be buried in a rich man’s tomb:
He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His death...
~ Isaiah 53:9

Jesus was buried in a rich man’s tomb:
As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away.
~ Matthew 27:57-60
You cannot prove the Bible with the Bible outside the Christian realm.

A non-Christian does not see proof in that because they do not see the Bible as truth - they see it as easily corruptible as prophecies could have potentially been fulfilled via "write-ins" or self fulfilling.

To prove Biblical prophecies, you must present immutable facts that came true and were written about before hand in the texts.

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07-03-2013, 04:41 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
The majority of bible "prophecies" "fulfilled" in the New Testament can be found in Matthew, who was writing to a Roman audience to make the Jesus story more palatable to Roman pagans. Romans believed in prophecy and soothsaying; Jews, generally, did not. Matthew went back through the existing Jewish texts and found anything even remotely resembling a prophecy, then altered the Jesus story with details added to fulfill as many misc. prophecies as possible, to make the Romans go, "Wow, this guy really did fulfill a lot of prophecies! Sounds legit!"

An example of this is Psalm 22:18 and Matthew 27:35. Nowhere else in the bible is it mentioned that Jesus' clothes were divided up by casting lots; this was a detail invented by Matthew to fulfill what he thought was a prophecy in Psalm 22. Unfortunately for him, Psalm 22 was not a prophecy but merely poetry.

The New Testament is rife with examples like this, Matthew most especially. Details were added to the base Jesus story written by Q, and the base Jesus story only loosely fulfills the Messianic prophecy, which itself was "fulfilled" probably two dozen times between 50 BC and 100 AD. There were dozens of Messiahs being heralded by different groups. Jesus (or the character of Jesus) just happened to be the one that got popular in Rome, and thus the one became a persistent religion and that everyone remembers.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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07-03-2013, 04:51 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
You bet. Who was Q? By that, I mean, I'm familiar with Q-source theory, Markan priority, synoptic theory, etc. but what is your proof that Q existed? There were other Messiahs mentioned in the scriptures, how would you explain the NT's popularity in the light that those contemporaneous to the events could have easily refuted them if they weren't true?
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07-03-2013, 04:53 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Quote:You cannot prove the Bible with the Bible outside the Christian realm.

A non-Christian does not see proof in that because they do not see the Bible as truth - they see it as easily corruptible as prophecies could have potentially been fulfilled via "write-ins" or self fulfilling.

To prove Biblical prophecies, you must present immutable facts that came true and were written about before hand in the texts.
I understand. You mean like the Earth is round and suspended on nothing and 200 laws that touch good health practices and pathways through the seas and predictions concerning the current nations, famines, earthquakes, poverty and even Atheism... it's okay that I posted certain prophecies anyway, right? The "Word does not come back void but accomplishes all God's purposes for it..."
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07-03-2013, 04:59 PM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2013 05:03 PM by Phaedrus.)
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Nope, don't have to prove Q existed, just have to point out that scholars (Christian ones at that) have determined that Luke and Mark are derived from the same earlier work. We don't know who wrote Luke either, and we can't "prove" this mysterious writer existed. In fact, the writer of Luke and Q might have been the same person. We don't know. It doesn't matter. The origins of the text are what matter, and Mark and Luke are derivative of an earlier work we call Q. Fin.

Marketing and luck explain the Jesus character's popularity. First off, no, the people of the time really couldn't refute something that happened nearly 70 years ago (when Mark and Luke appear to have been written). Keep in mind, not many people lived past 30 back then, and the only people who could possibly have remembered anything about Jesus by that point were 80+ years old. Essentially no eyewitnesses, so no one to refute the various claims made about the character.

As for why Jesus in particular made it big, it was because -- gasp! -- Matthew and others made up details that were palatable to a Roman audience, thus the Jesus cult hit it big in Rome. Also Saul's alterations to Jesus' philosophy meant that *everyone* was saved, including gentiles, while most messiahs kept with the notion of only the Jews being saved. Note that the Jesus cults in Judea and Alexandria and Greece never really made it big. They stuck around, but they didn't explode like the Roman one did. It was only the Roman branch that grew and thrived; and once one of these Christian cultists became emperor and made it the state religion, well, there she wrote.




This isn't hard to figure out, kid.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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07-03-2013, 05:05 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(07-03-2013 04:53 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:You cannot prove the Bible with the Bible outside the Christian realm.

A non-Christian does not see proof in that because they do not see the Bible as truth - they see it as easily corruptible as prophecies could have potentially been fulfilled via "write-ins" or self fulfilling.

To prove Biblical prophecies, you must present immutable facts that came true and were written about before hand in the texts.
I understand. You mean like the Earth is round and suspended on nothing and 200 laws that touch good health practices and pathways through the seas and predictions concerning the current nations, famines, earthquakes, poverty and even Atheism... it's okay that I posted certain prophecies anyway, right? The "Word does not come back void but accomplishes all God's purposes for it..."
You didn't post any of that. You posted stuff about Jesus.

I never argued the above point.

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07-03-2013, 06:44 PM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2013 08:06 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Funny, he doesn't provide a Christian source. Any college freshman who has taken Old Testament 101 knows the role of a prophet never was to tell the future. I'm not claiming "special knowledge". It's COMMON knowledge. Only Christian fundies pursue this sort of bullshit, as they NEED to as their faith is weak, and they need "proofs". In fact if their IS "proof", then they have not been given the gift of faith. It's just fundie bullshit. No reputable scholar talks in these terms. Only theist trolls. And by the way, what's wrong with this picture. The messiah was supposed to come and reestablish the NATION of Israel, and it was supposed to last forever. Oops. No small problem. Never happened. Even the apostles thought that was what Jebus was up to, as one of the LAST things they asked him was "Lord wilt thou at this time return the kingdom to Israel ?" Wooops. The MAIN thing they thought that was what their "messiah" was supposed to do, (only a minority of Jews were looking for one), was the political return of the kingdom. The MAIN thing he was supposed to do NEVER happened. Forest for the trees, SexualllyPleasingJebusTroll who ignores what is inconvenient. The MAIN thing never happened. Never. So much for prophesy, as fortune telling. Jebus cannot be said to even BE the "messiah" if he FAILED to complete the ONE task a messiah was supposed to do. Jerusalem was completely destroyed in the bar Kochba revolt in 133 CE, and never has been a kingdom since before the time of Jebus. So for anyone to claim "fulfillment" of sooth-saying in him is complete crap. So for you to claim that anything refers to Jebus makes no sense. The Romans ruled when he was born, and they got rid of him. Nothing changed. Human nature has changed not an iota. He did nothing a "messiah" was supposed to do, so it's quite amazing you would even talk about the two in the same sentence. Apparently you never heard about what a "messiah" was supposed to actually DO, BEFORE you can claim anything refers to him. He's ain't no messiah. So to sum up, not ONE "prophesy" was fulfilled. in Jebus. That's a ZERO ("0") rate of fulfillment. Jebus cannot even be among messiah candidates if he failed to do the ONE thing a messiah was supposed to do.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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07-03-2013, 07:58 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
PJ Stop fucking using the bible to prove the bible you nitwit.
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07-03-2013, 08:16 PM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2013 08:34 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(07-03-2013 02:58 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:And now comes the admission of "within 11 days" when it was actually within a year and 11 days. So, it goes from right-on, to close, to not as close.

So, Pj. Do. You. Have. Any. Other. Prophecies?
Here's a few, thanks:
If the prophecies about the Messiah were not in fact fulfilled through Jesus of Nazareth, then the New Testament writers, all of them Jews, invented an elaborate story with details created to fit the Messianic prophecies. It is hard to understand why they would have bothered. They gained nothing out of it and, instead, attracted persecution.
If Jesus did not fulfill the Hebrew Scriptures, then the Messiah is still to come and His life and deeds must match these prophecies.

The Messiah would be born of a virgin:
... the Lord Himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel.
~ Isaiah 7:14

Jesus was born of a virgin:
This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
~ Matthew.1:18 (see also The Messiah would be the Son of God:
I will proclaim the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.’
~ Psalms 2:7 (see also The Messiah would be a descendant of Abraham:
The Lord had said to Abram, “... all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”
~ Genesis 12:1-3 (see also
The Messiah would be a descendant of Judah:
The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until He comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is His.
~ Genesis 49:10 (see also
The Messiah would be a descendant of Jesse:
A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit ... In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to Him, and His place of rest will be glorious.
~ Isaiah 11:1,10

Jesus is a descendant of Jesse:
... and Jesse the father of King David ...
~ Matthew 1:6 (see also
The Messiah would be a descendant of King David:
“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a king who will reign wisely ...”
~ Jeremiah 23:5

Jesus is a descendant of David:
A record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham ...
... and Jesse the father of King David ...
~ Matthew 1:1,6 (see also
The Messiah would be called Lord:
Of David. A psalm. The Lord says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”
~ Psalms 110:1 (see also
The Messiah would have pre-existence:
The Lord brought Me forth as the first of His works, before His deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
~ Proverbs 8:22-23

Jesus had pre-existence:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
~ John 1:1-3 (see also
The Messiah would have the anointing of God’s Spirit:
Here is My servant, whom I uphold, My chosen one in whom I delight; I will put My Spirit on Him and He will bring justice to the nations.
~ Isaiah 42:1 (see also
The Messiah would be preceded by a messenger:
“See, I will send My messenger, who will prepare the way before Me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to His temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.
~ Malachi 3:1 (see also
The Messiah would perform miracles:
“... your God will come ... He will come to save you.” Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy ...
~ Isaiah 35:4-6 (see also
The Messiah would be a stumbling stone for Israel:
... He will be a sanctuary; but for both houses of Israel He will be a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. And for the people of Jerusalem He will be a trap and a snare. Many of them will stumble; they will fall and be broken, they will be snared and captured.
~ Isaiah 8:14-15

Jesus was a stumbling stone for the Jews who rejected Him:
For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in Him will never be put to shame.” Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone,” and, “A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.”
~ 1 Peter 2:6-8 (see also
The Messiah would be a light to the gentiles:
...The Lord says – He who formed Me in the womb to be His servant to bring Jacob back to Him and gather Israel to Himself ... “It is too small a thing for You to be My servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make You a light for the Gentiles, that You may bring My salvation to the ends of the earth.
~ Isaiah 49:5-6 (see also
The Messiah would be raised from the dead:
... You will not abandon Me to the grave, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.
~ Psalms 16:10 (see also
The Messiah would be betrayed by a friend:
Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
~ Psalms 41:9 (see also
The Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver:
I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said to me, ‘Throw it to the potter’ – the handsome price at which they priced Me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.
~ Zechariah 11:12-13

Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver:
When Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood” ... Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests ... decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field ...
~ Matthew 27:3-7 (see also
The Messiah would be beaten and spat upon:
I offered My back to those who beat Me, My cheeks to those who pulled out My beard; I did not hide My face from mocking and spitting.
~ Isaiah 50:6 (see also
The Messiah would be rejected by His own people:
I am a stranger to My brothers, an alien to My own mother’s sons ...
~ Psalms 69:8 (see also
The Messiah would suffer thirst and be given vinegar to drink:
They put gall in My food and gave Me vinegar for My thirst.
~ Psalms 69:21 (see also Psalms 22:15-16)

Psalms 22:15-16
“My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and My tongue sticks to the roof of My mouth; You lay Me in the dust of death. Dogs have surrounded Me; a band of evil men has encircled Me, they have pierced My hands and My feet.”


Jesus was thirsty and was given vinegar to drink:
Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips.
~ John 19:28-29

The Messiah’s bones would not be broken:
... He protects all His bones, not one of them will be broken.
~ Psalms 34:20

Jesus’ bones were not broken:
The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. But when they came to Jesus and found that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
~ John 19:32-33

The Messiah would be pierced:
I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on Me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for Him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
~ Zechariah 12:10

Jesus was pierced:
Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
~ John 19:34

The Messiah would be buried in a rich man’s tomb:
He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His death...
~ Isaiah 53:9

Jesus was buried in a rich man’s tomb:
As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away.
~ Matthew 27:57-60

All bullshit. Invented by New Testament authors in an age of pious fraud, to make it appear he fulfilled the prophecies, which referred to a political "savior". He was not born of a virgin. It was a mistranslation.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...rgin+birth
No human ever was. If he was, he was not a real human. All the rest is irrelevant, as the ONE thing he was supposed to do, he failed at. Sorry SPJT, try harder. Your sorry-ass messiah didn't even get his revolt started. Simon bar Kochba at least caused some trouble for the Romans.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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07-03-2013, 08:44 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(05-03-2013 10:03 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  There's just a lot of confusion on this thread from the opposing side. It seems like that the standard most of you will accept for anything is empirical evidence, however, there is only documentary evidence for most facts accepted in history textbooks. We have documentary evidence in the scriptures but the authors are taken for biased or as having confirmatory bias. Can't we just say y'all reject every fact of history so we may move on?
Thanks.
Either we take the biblical history as truth or we do not accept any historical proof. Nice false dichotomy.

Instead why do you offer equal evidence. Give us an actual picture of god, video of god, and a forum account for god. Oh wait that standard is way to high for god, yet a human being can meet it with ease. Is your god willing but not able?

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