Run The Gauntlet
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18-03-2013, 01:32 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
First, I'm new around here and so I'll admit to not having read this entire thread, but I have read the first page and the last several. So I apologize if this has all been said before.

I can most certainly prove that I exist. Line up a million random, sane people and they will surely agree that I can be seen, heard, felt, smelled and tasted. Furthermore, I am able to interact with my environment. I'm confident that 99.99% of people, based on our current understanding of the universe, would agree that there is sufficient proof that I exist. This is proof enough for most people. But do the same with a god and the degree of certainty falls precipitously. In fact, even the most devout believers will generally admit that there is no actual proof that god exists and that they believe on faith. If we dispense with our known reality and talk in the abstract, I suppose that nothing can truly be proved and conversely nothing can be disproved. It's an interesting mental exercise and I indulge in it myself occasionally but this seems to me to be a very confusing and outright dangerous way to live one's life. If the OP really does think this way, I would suggest that he or she is probably insane and we should all do the decent and humane thing and stop encouraging this any further. The OP's argument here seems to be that anything less than 100% proof is no proof at all. Well, this seems a rather silly way of looking at things unless one is reading The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, in which case it's funny but should not be taken too seriously.

Again, perhaps this has been pointed out previously; but if you cannot accept the proof that I exist, then your god doesn't exist either.
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18-03-2013, 01:55 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
But you see, Heathen, that your argument is not proof that the OP will accept. HE cannot see, hear, feel, smell, or taste you because you are on the other end of the internet. He has limited tools for exploring your existence (the internet) and therefore can reject your proof, especially when you use hyperbole like "line up a million people" and "99.99% of people" - he knows full well you cannot line up a million people nor can you get 99.99% of people to agree that you exist so he can argue that.

That's where he's going with this.

Via the internet, you cannot meet his challenge to prove that you exist.

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18-03-2013, 02:31 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Ahh... So it's worse than I thought.

How did it go with the argument that; if he cannot accept the proof that I exist, then his god doesn't exist either. (Surely someone has tried that one)
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18-03-2013, 03:17 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(18-03-2013 01:55 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  But you see, Heathen, that your argument is not proof that the OP will accept. HE cannot see, hear, feel, smell, or taste you because you are on the other end of the internet. He has limited tools for exploring your existence (the internet) and therefore can reject your proof, especially when you use hyperbole like "line up a million people" and "99.99% of people" - he knows full well you cannot line up a million people nor can you get 99.99% of people to agree that you exist so he can argue that.

That's where he's going with this.

Via the internet, you cannot meet his challenge to prove that you exist.
I can Skype him. I could give him all of my personal identification information (I'm not going to, but I could). When his god Skypes me, then we'll talk. Wink

Keep your rosaries out of my ovaries, and your theology out of my biology.
"If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people." --Dr. House
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18-03-2013, 03:25 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(18-03-2013 01:55 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  But you see, Heathen, that your argument is not proof that the OP will accept. HE cannot see, hear, feel, smell, or taste you because you are on the other end of the internet. He has limited tools for exploring your existence (the internet) and therefore can reject your proof, especially when you use hyperbole like "line up a million people" and "99.99% of people" - he knows full well you cannot line up a million people nor can you get 99.99% of people to agree that you exist so he can argue that.

That's where he's going with this.

Via the internet, you cannot meet his challenge to prove that you exist.
Perhaps he could if the proof was more personal. Much like a god proving its existence by satisfying a specific demand (e.g.: turn my Dodge into a Ferrari, make hair grow from my bald head, turn me invisible, etc.), you could post a specific photo. Start with the control photo (here is a picture of me), and then post photos of his specific requests that could not come from a stock catalogue such as: flipping off a banana while drinking Cherry 7-Up, sitting in a fireplace wearing a tutu, etc. Eventually he would have to concede that you either exist, or are an amazingly elaborate hoax. But at least the hoax exists.

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19-03-2013, 08:59 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Quote:You ended something with "Period." It must mean it's a good counter-argument. Wait...Anyways, I'm not missing the point. It doesn't matter if we're not talking about my made-up (and pretty damn fabulous) lunar being. If you're claiming that I can't even prove my own existence, and trying to apply it to an argument for god's existence, then I should be able to retest your hypothesis with my pink moon man (and with Bigfoot, bug-eyed Martians, UFOs, unicorns, and so on) and have the same results. Besides, I saw a tornado rip out our fence when I was a child and even if I do not exist in the form that I believe I'm existing in, I am sentient in some manner of speaking for even dreaming up this world. Although if I'm just dreaming my life and acting as if it's real, I would be less poor and my apartment wouldn't be freezing right now. EDIT: And at least I can look on the weather channel, decide I want to chase a tornado, and go do it. Finally, if my post is "typical of dozens on this thread alone," it's because you've answered nothing and your hypothesis/argument is severely flawed and we're pointing it out to you over and over again.
**
[quote]If you're claiming that I can't even prove my own existence, and trying to apply it to an argument for god's existence{/quote]Never said that, implied it or claimed it, merely made a 1-2 proposition. 1 is yet to be addressed in any meaningful sense because nearly everyone here says, "I'm perhaps dreaming this existence or in a Matrix", just as you do above, which is tantamount to asking me as the challenger to accept a non-materialist existence outside this reality for which there is no empirical evidence!
Further, and this is philosophically intriguing, you're asking me to accept you may be "dreaming", that is, NOT AWARE of the actual nature of reality. You're firming Pascal's wager for yourself when you do so, aren't you? Smile
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19-03-2013, 09:02 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Quote:But you see, Heathen, that your argument is not proof that the OP will accept. HE cannot see, hear, feel, smell, or taste you because you are on the other end of the internet. He has limited tools for exploring your existence (the internet) and therefore can reject your proof, especially when you use hyperbole like "line up a million people" and "99.99% of people" - he knows full well you cannot line up a million people nor can you get 99.99% of people to agree that you exist so he can argue that.

That's where he's going with this.

Via the internet, you cannot meet his challenge to prove that you exist.
Yup. Like I wrote weeks ago, Aseptic, you may be the wisest freethinker on this entire forum. Now if we can get others to admit what you just said as fact, that my challenge cannot be met, I can decide prayerfully if I should still present my proof anyway... Smile
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19-03-2013, 09:05 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Quote:In fact, even the most devout believers will generally admit that there is no actual proof that god exists and that they believe on faith.
Now there's a straw man argument indeed. Don't you remember the story of former Atheist Josh McDowell, who was challenged by a faculty member while still a student to present evidence for God in a public forum, and then spoke for 45 minutes without pause? Not one Christian I know says they believe on "faith" without actual proof (or at least evidence) that God exists. Not ONE. I'm unsure I'd bring out the old "But you people just never wanted to seek hard enough" canard, but I sure would likely say you people must talk to fairly stupid Christians overall. There's so much evidence to me, that doubts are quite fleeting and my prayers are like, "God why aren't you answering immediately?" and not "God, are you there?" Total STRAW MAN argument.
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19-03-2013, 09:08 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(19-03-2013 09:05 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:In fact, even the most devout believers will generally admit that there is no actual proof that god exists and that they believe on faith.
Now there's a straw man argument indeed. Don't you remember the story of former Atheist Josh McDowell, who was challenged by a faculty member while still a student to present evidence for God in a public forum, and then spoke for 45 minutes without pause? Not one Christian I know says they believe on "faith" without actual proof (or at least evidence) that God exists. Not ONE. I'm unsure I'd bring out the old "But you people just never wanted to seek hard enough" canard, but I sure would likely say you people must talk to fairly stupid Christians overall. There's so much evidence to me, that doubts are quite fleeting and my prayers are like, "God why aren't you answering immediately?" and not "God, are you there?" Total STRAW MAN argument.

Present your proof or shut the fuck up.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-03-2013, 09:22 AM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2013 09:25 AM by Heathen.)
RE: Run The Gauntlet
PleaseJesus,

If I accept your premise that I may not exist, will you accept that your god may not exist either?
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