Run The Gauntlet
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21-03-2013, 07:57 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Quote:How about trying to read what I wrote before misunderstanding me, hm? I'm not saying we're conversing in a dream or a Matrix, I'm telling you we are having the conversation regardless. Clever diversion to accuse me of double standards without addressing the fact that you are, indeed, claiming that if we can't prove our own existence, then god must exist. Also clever to completely ignore my valid suggestions for proving I'm me. Typical.
I see you dance well even when I'm not partnering you. Nice attempt at a duck.

1) "I'm telling you we are having the conversation regardless"... regardless of WHAT. EXISTENCE? Address the challenge I'm making, please. You're firming my point for me.

2) I NEVER claimed that if you're unable to prove your existence it becomes de facto proof God exists. I merely stated a challenge--prove you exist and I'll prove God exists. You show yours and I'll show mine... yours (freethinkers) is inadequate and rather small.

3) Which valid suggestions did you make to prove you exist? You telling me the tests I can do to help you is hardly making a debate case for you. The MORE so since ALL freethinkers mock Christians for daring to suggest THEY can find God by following certain simple rubrics.

4) Lemon curry?
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21-03-2013, 08:06 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Quote:PleaseJesus, I'll admit to not being as well educated or intelligent as many here, and apologize in advance for " for not getting the point". But I fail to see your purpose of this thread. I can provide physical evidence of my existance, for instance, the IRS definately tells me I'm here, I can scan photos of my life or birth certificate. I have hospital bills from ER visits. We all have these physical interactions, including you. I don't require proof of God through the internet, but in the physical world, where I live. Although you may spend alot of time in the virtual world, you don't live there. So that is what I can provide, physical evidence, and that is what I require related to God, physical proof. You may or may not be the same way, and I respect that. So, I apologize if some of the arguments here are over my head, but are scanned photos, bills, birth certificate,etc.. the evidence or proof you would accept for proof of my existence? Thanks..
Thank you, I appreciate your sincere and courteous inquiry. My spouse was adopted. She found out at some point that her first name was not her birth name and her parents were actually her adoptive parents. Her reality changed. Further, perhaps her parents were lying and she really wasn't adopted! Were you there observing and receiving peer opinions and recording them when you received your birth certificate?

You see, this is a real issue when Atheists insist that God has to reveal Himself to them personally and in a manner of their choosing or that every piece of human spiritual experience has to be verified independently by skeptics. How does IRS paperwork prove you exist? How do you know paper exists? Every human sensate experience comes from images conjured in the brain, right? How do you know the yellow you see isn't my blue? You don't--you don't "see" yellow, you "see" an image in your mind that is your brain's translation of what signals come back via reflected light off a mass you presume is "yellow".

Does any of this post prove Jesus is God? Of course not. But I'm pointing out the transient and subjective nature of some of "reality" and I'm underscoring how accepting ONLY materialist claims for evidence is... well, limiting. Dirtnapper... have you ever smelled, tasted, touched, measured, magnetized, etc. God? Well, how about gravity? There is no way to objectively measure gravity other than as a mathematical (non-material) abstraction given factors of mass, speed, etc. We can ONLY hypothesize gravitational effect and then drop something to the ground and see what we think is cause and effect.

Why don't materialists reject gravity, then, or at least the given assumption that it will work the same way every time in the future? (Here comes another tired argument about it's likely to happen in the future.) Why don't materialists understand one can test God and then see a (future) cause and effect relationship? Just because God uses gravity or dark matter--no, that couldn't be! We just don't know how yet... Ugh.

PS. Watch as everyone addresses this post and not the one immediately before it! Keep thinking!
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21-03-2013, 10:50 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
I'm an atheist. I don't claim that god must prove himself. I don't "insist that god has to reveal himself". I absolutely don't claim that "every piece of human spiritual existence has to be verified independently by skeptics".

Here is what I claim:

1. There might or might not be a god.
2. If there is a god, it might not be Yahweh.
3. If Yahweh exists, he is trying very hard to hide from me.
3a. Yahweh never seems to manifest any evidence, relationship, spiritual guidance, revelation, or whatever, to anyone unless they believe in him first. That's putting the cart before the horse - the only people who get revelation-like knowledge of Yahweh are the people who don't need it because they already believe.
3b. I'm told time and time and time again that first I must believe, then I'll find him. I'm even told that he cannot reveal himself to me unless I first believe he exists. That seems very limiting for an omnipotent god.
3c. I cannot make myself believe in Yahweh any more than you can make yourself believe in Santa Clause. You know Santa is not real and cannot force your mind to believe differently - I cannot do this for Yahweh.
3c1. Yahweh is presumably omniscient so he must know that I cannot believe in him. He created me like this, unable to believe in him, and yet he still refuses to reveal himself to me.
3d. The real, observable universe is full of evidence that disproves Yahweh (or at least his bible), such as the age of the earth, evolution, just about everything in cosmology - this evidence contradicts the bible and could only exist if the bible is wrong or if Yahweh falsified it to deceive mankind.
3e. The world is full of conflicting religions. Yahweh seems to expect me, with zero guidance, to use my analytic brain to weed out thousands of incorrect religions, discern the truth, and figure out which religion is right, then gullibly stop using my analytic brain and accept that religion without question, all before he will lift one omnipotent finger to guide me to his salvation.
4. Yahweh is not just hiding from me. He's hiding from almost everyone. Even if all 2 billion Christians are right (even the Mormons?), that still leaves 5 billion people who are wrong. Surely an omniscient deity knows this. Surely an omnipotent deity could do better than 2 out of 7 - that's not even a passing grade.
5. There is no evidence for any god. No clear miracles (no, finding lost car keys is NOT a miracle, even if you prayed for it first), no signs, nothing objective at all that shows that any god is protecting us, helping us, or doing anything for us at all.
6. Your spiritual experience is yours. If it convinces you, then good for you. I don't expect or want to verify it. But it won't convince me. If Yahweh wants me to find him, he could throw a little of that spiritual experience my way, but he should be omniscient enough to understand why your personal experience doesn't convince me.

That's just for starters.

Given all that, I'm left with a few possible conclusions:
i. No god exists.
ii. Some god exists but I can't tell for sure - this god does nothing for mankind.
iii. Some god exists but is deliberately hiding - this god does nothing for mankind.

That's about it. I don't see any other explanations.

Note that i, ii, and iii are all manifestly the same - all three of those conclusions lead me to the same place, with no reason to pick a church and begin worshiping something that almost certainly is not there (either there is no god or I picked the wrong church) or, if it is there, doesn't do anything for anyone anyway.

The best possible outcome is that I pretend to have a one-sided relationship with a deity who probably doesn't exist or doesn't do anything for me anyway.

I see no benefit in that, so what's the point?

If god wants me, he can reveal himself to me and give me a reason to navigate his maze of falsified counter-evidence and false alternate religions so that I can realistically seek out this one-sided relationship and understand why I would want to do so in the first place.

That is why I want some proof, some evidence, for god. Until that time, I just don't see the point of crediting him with any more plausibility than I credit Santa Claus.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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21-03-2013, 11:15 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
I'm not playing games with you, PJ. I'll Skype you, when god Skypes me, then we'll talk. I'll give you my birth certificate, copies of ER bills, Social Security number, job history, current job (call my boss), bank information, my parents' phone numbers, my boyfriend's phone number, my friends' phone number, etc. Anyways, if you have proof of god, spill it. You say you don't need us to prove our existence to do so, even though you were very clear in your original message, then just spill it. You're a troll and my IQ just dropped so far for having talked to you that Mensa has revoked my membership. Please, go on and tell me your proof that Jesus is the messiah and the son of the Christian god. I'm listening. Get to your point before page 65 or you're no longer worth the argument. This is getting way too old.

Keep your rosaries out of my ovaries, and your theology out of my biology.
"If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people." --Dr. House
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21-03-2013, 11:31 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
I think that until PJ can prove he exists, we should all stop this nonsense.

It's been fun, but a lot like those carnival games where you eventually realize you can't possibly win.

I'm done here.
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21-03-2013, 12:38 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(21-03-2013 08:06 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:PleaseJesus, I'll admit to not being as well educated or intelligent as many here, and apologize in advance for " for not getting the point". But I fail to see your purpose of this thread. I can provide physical evidence of my existance, for instance, the IRS definately tells me I'm here, I can scan photos of my life or birth certificate. I have hospital bills from ER visits. We all have these physical interactions, including you. I don't require proof of God through the internet, but in the physical world, where I live. Although you may spend alot of time in the virtual world, you don't live there. So that is what I can provide, physical evidence, and that is what I require related to God, physical proof. You may or may not be the same way, and I respect that. So, I apologize if some of the arguments here are over my head, but are scanned photos, bills, birth certificate,etc.. the evidence or proof you would accept for proof of my existence? Thanks..
Thank you, I appreciate your sincere and courteous inquiry. My spouse was adopted. She found out at some point that her first name was not her birth name and her parents were actually her adoptive parents. Her reality changed. Further, perhaps her parents were lying and she really wasn't adopted! Were you there observing and receiving peer opinions and recording them when you received your birth certificate?

You see, this is a real issue when Atheists insist that God has to reveal Himself to them personally and in a manner of their choosing or that every piece of human spiritual experience has to be verified independently by skeptics. How does IRS paperwork prove you exist? How do you know paper exists? Every human sensate experience comes from images conjured in the brain, right? How do you know the yellow you see isn't my blue? You don't--you don't "see" yellow, you "see" an image in your mind that is your brain's translation of what signals come back via reflected light off a mass you presume is "yellow".

Does any of this post prove Jesus is God? Of course not. But I'm pointing out the transient and subjective nature of some of "reality" and I'm underscoring how accepting ONLY materialist claims for evidence is... well, limiting. Dirtnapper... have you ever smelled, tasted, touched, measured, magnetized, etc. God? Well, how about gravity? There is no way to objectively measure gravity other than as a mathematical (non-material) abstraction given factors of mass, speed, etc. We can ONLY hypothesize gravitational effect and then drop something to the ground and see what we think is cause and effect.

Why don't materialists reject gravity, then, or at least the given assumption that it will work the same way every time in the future? (Here comes another tired argument about it's likely to happen in the future.) Why don't materialists understand one can test God and then see a (future) cause and effect relationship? Just because God uses gravity or dark matter--no, that couldn't be! We just don't know how yet... Ugh.

PS. Watch as everyone addresses this post and not the one immediately before it! Keep thinking!



I think I understand what you are saying. I did not accurately convey my requirements on proof.( and require is too strong a word here, as I'm not "requiring"anyone to do anything.) While physical proof would be nice, I mean it on a personal level. There would be ways to reveal it without moving mountains or grand actions. I did believe, devoutly, at one point. There are many reasons why I don't now,some of it has to do with evidence, some observation, some research, but most importantly it was with honest intent. And none with anger. It was very important for me to find the truth. Maybe it's better said by "my truth".

It seems to me most of the debate here is more philosophical. The nature of reality, are we in a matrix, do I really exist..etc..I've only read a little about philosophy and enjoy it for mental exercise. I think it does help with building critical thinking skills. But beyond that it doesn't help me in this world. I'm good with here and now.

I agree with you about using all our faculties, not just sight. Just because I can't see the wind,etc.. But I can feel it. I can see what it affects physically. I can't see the spiritual, so I can't deny what you've experienced(nor would I want to) or explain it. At the same time, you can't deny me my experience's. What I do know is my journey has been truly heartfelt and honest.

Sorry if my post has been discombobulated, I've been in and out of the office at work. Probably should have waited. Oh well.
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21-03-2013, 02:48 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Quote:Given all that, I'm left with a few possible conclusions:
i. No god exists.
ii. Some god exists but I can't tell for sure - this god does nothing for mankind.
iii. Some god exists but is deliberately hiding - this god does nothing for mankind.
Thanks for your thoughtful post. iii is close--the Bible explains that since the prophets and even Christ were martyred, God has chosen preaching to save. One of the very few things I think was incorrect in your post, by the way, was that you have to believe before you see God. My understanding of the scriptures is one must be a doubter who is critically reviewing the evidence to become a believer--seek = find. Thanks.
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21-03-2013, 02:49 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Quote:I agree with you about using all our faculties, not just sight. Just because I can't see the wind,etc.. But I can feel it. I can see what it affects physically. I can't see the spiritual, so I can't deny what you've experienced(nor would I want to) or explain it. At the same time, you can't deny me my experience's. What I do know is my journey has been truly heartfelt and honest.
I appreciate that very much. The journey can be worthwhile, and the search for God worth some investment of time. Thanks.
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21-03-2013, 02:53 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Quote:I'm not playing games with you, PJ. I'll Skype you, when god Skypes me, then we'll talk. I'll give you my birth certificate, copies of ER bills, Social Security number, job history, current job (call my boss), bank information, my parents' phone numbers, my boyfriend's phone number, my friends' phone number, etc. Anyways, if you have proof of god, spill it. You say you don't need us to prove our existence to do so, even though you were very clear in your original message, then just spill it. You're a troll and my IQ just dropped so far for having talked to you that Mensa has revoked my membership. Please, go on and tell me your proof that Jesus is the messiah and the son of the Christian god. I'm listening. Get to your point before page 65 or you're no longer worth the argument. This is getting way too old.
Wow. You ALSO qualify for Mensa? My wife and I both test genius IQ, and our eldest is currently waiting to hear back from her Yale application. Cool. Here are the main problems I see in your post:

1) "I'll Skype you, when god Skypes me, then we'll talk." Note the emphasis that revelation must be on **your** terms from a **superior**. Do you speak to your boss this way or your spouse? You HAVE to communicate with me in the time and manner in which I and I only see as fit! I doubt you talk that way to your betters, although you are condescending to me and I'm likely older than and/or of a higher IQ (not boasting here). Smile

2) "Get to your point before page 65 or you're no longer worth the argument." I think life happiness and eternal blessing or regret and condemnation are worth a lot of time and a lot of argumentation. Don't miss Heaven because you're lazy! You haven't been posting for 65 pages, more like three. Don't be so childish.
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21-03-2013, 03:48 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(21-03-2013 02:48 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Given all that, I'm left with a few possible conclusions:
i. No god exists.
ii. Some god exists but I can't tell for sure - this god does nothing for mankind.
iii. Some god exists but is deliberately hiding - this god does nothing for mankind.
Thanks for your thoughtful post. iii is close--the Bible explains that since the prophets and even Christ were martyred, God has chosen preaching to save.

God sent Christ to be martyred. He can't react after that martyrdom because his omniscience told him in advance just exactly what was going to happen before he sent Christ. Therefore, it was all pre-planned on his part - the fact that he would send Christ, the fact that Christ would be martyred, and what he was going to do about it, all pre-planned. So what you're really saying is that God chose preaching, period.

Fine.

But it's obviously not working out. 5 out of 7 humans are not responding well to that preaching. More, if you count the fact that even Christian preachers are preaching different things - they can't even get their own interpretations of God's perfect book straight.

I would think, hope, that if a perfect, omniscient, omnipotent god existed, he would be clever enough to realize that saving 2/7 of mankind is a failure and maybe he'd be benevolent enough to look for a better way to save us from his trap. Yes, his trap, he created us as we are, he created us to be fallen, sinners, unsaved, whatever, and he gives us this crappy half-wit preaching approach to salvation. Please, a mortal child could work out a better solution (or even better yet, not creating the artificial problem in the first place).

(21-03-2013 02:48 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  One of the very few things I think was incorrect in your post, by the way, was that you have to believe before you see God. My understanding of the scriptures is one must be a doubter who is critically reviewing the evidence to become a believer--seek = find. Thanks.

I'm glad you think that's incorrect, but it's what Christians tell me all the time. Your version seems to be different, but I've done what you suggest. I am a doubter (of biblical doctrine) and I've critically reviewed (biblical) evidence, I've also critically reviewed (scientific) evidence to see which makes the most sense, and the more I do this stuff, the more convinced I am that the bible is a heap of rubbish, religion is wrong (all of it), and gods are so extremely unlikely as to be indistinguishable from non-existent.

So if your version is correct, my doubting and seeking should have invited god to send me a convincing revelation by now. So far, my equation looks more like--seek <> find.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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