Run The Gauntlet
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04-04-2013, 02:43 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(03-04-2013 01:54 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:So I believe in God and all and jesus and all that jazz, but my question is simple.
Can you give four or five reasons why you believe in God or Christ, please? Are they metaphysical reasons? Empirical evidence? Anecdotal stories? What? Thanks.

So you ask for 4 or 5 reasons when you won't even give us your one "smoking gun" reason?

You don't see the flaw in that?

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04-04-2013, 02:52 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Quote:So you completely discard what I had to say to you Mr. PleaseJesus. Why not give the information freely, this smoking gun you so have. If you and YOUR god are all about withholding information that would, undoubtly save a million, nay, a BILLION lost souls, just because your pety conditions are not met... Then to you and your god I say, you suck. This god is not one that I was any part of, and anyone who is not blinded by thier own ego will most likely agree with me. (See, I dont even make assumption about what other people will think, let alone my god's thoughts.)
Unless you have something NEW to add to this conversation, then I am sorry... I am out. I have kids, my time would be better served telling them to sit down and shut up than talking to you about whatever it is that you seem to think you are talking about.
Sorry if this comes off rude.
It doesn't sounds rude at all but sincere. But you have to understand that even God withholds information CLEARLY, right? Knock, however, and it shall be opened. Seek, however, and you shall find... etc. It's not my petty conditions I'm concerned with but those of freethinkers.

I come home from Iraq with a war wound and freethinkers say, "I'll believe it when the shell hits my home." You can only approach God on God's terms. Can anyone here make a logical case for why God should approach as we see fit?

With superiors in work, government, police, authorities with power, we don't demand they stoop to our level, right?
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04-04-2013, 02:53 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(04-04-2013 02:43 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(03-04-2013 01:54 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Can you give four or five reasons why you believe in God or Christ, please? Are they metaphysical reasons? Empirical evidence? Anecdotal stories? What? Thanks.

So you ask for 4 or 5 reasons when you won't even give us your one "smoking gun" reason?

You don't see the flaw in that?

I have like 500 reasons! I was asking the poster who said he believed in God and Christ to give us several reasons why. Perhaps that's what we should do next. Have you tell us several reasons why you don't believe in God... I understand you believe there are serious ethical and textual flaws in the Bible. But tell us why not be a Theist at all? Then I can understand and hopefully move on.
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04-04-2013, 03:01 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
[/quote]
It doesn't sounds rude at all but sincere. But you have to understand that even God withholds information CLEARLY, right? Knock, however, and it shall be opened. Seek, however, and you shall find... etc. It's not my petty conditions I'm concerned with but those of freethinkers.

I come home from Iraq with a war wound and freethinkers say, "I'll believe it when the shell hits my home." You can only approach God on God's terms. Can anyone here make a logical case for why God should approach as we see fit?

With superiors in work, government, police, authorities with power, we don't demand they stoop to our level, right?
[/quote]

First off, if you served in the war/s, then thank you for your service. "Freedom costs a buck O five."
I thought god meets us on our level, not the other way around, cuz god is not even close to our level. Right? SO its kinda impossible to meet him on his level is it not? Good thing I think that he jumps down to our pety level, but I digress.
This smoking gun that you have... please spill it. I don't think god would be happy about you withholding this information because of the sheer numbers of the lost that would no longer be lost. Am I right? I mean... if he is down with letting the lost stay lost cuz of his ego, or yours, then ugh... yeah. I don't really want to say the rude things that come to mind.

You can argue with logic all you want, but if you put faulty data in to start with then you get a faulty answer. No matter how logically you agrue it.
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04-04-2013, 03:19 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(04-04-2013 02:53 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(04-04-2013 02:43 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  So you ask for 4 or 5 reasons when you won't even give us your one "smoking gun" reason?

You don't see the flaw in that?

I have like 500 reasons! I was asking the poster who said he believed in God and Christ to give us several reasons why. Perhaps that's what we should do next. Have you tell us several reasons why you don't believe in God... I understand you believe there are serious ethical and textual flaws in the Bible. But tell us why not be a Theist at all? Then I can understand and hopefully move on.

Easy enough:

1. Not a shred of evidence. None. No answered prayers, no miracles, no verifiable history, no "hey, check it out, I'm god". Nothing.

2. The "he's infinitely powerful and has existed eternally" illogic is insane. God would have had to evolve somewhere. As a species. Just like we did, only he did it longer and better and became omnipotent (the whole species did). But then that means his species started on on some random planet somewhere, with abiogenesis and evolution and all that. So if he could start that way, then so could we. And with point 1, no evidence that god exists, there's no reason to believe natural processes evolved a god who created us when Occam's Razor says that it's much simpler that we're the product of the same kind of natural process.

3. Religion is a scam. It relies on indoctrination, brainwashing, prejudice, fear, suppression, repression, and control just like the worst tyrants in history have used the same tactics to rule kingdoms or establish cults. It prefers ignorance over enlightenment, dogma over thought, and fear over freedom. I don't believe in evil, but if anything is evil for the sake of being evil, it's religion.

4. Philosophically the whole idea is nonsense. No being could be so brilliant as to create a universe and all the magnificent underlying laws and yet be so stupid as to create the world and humans so badly. No being could possibly know everything and yet create such an ignorant concept of heaven, hell, sin, blame, ignorance, faith, and gullibility as the Judeo-Christian religions want us to believe. No loving being could submit the subjects he loves to eternal torment or create such a miserable existence full of suffering, not when he has the power to make it otherwise.

5. Also philosophically, there's no way it's turtles all the way down.

In a nutshell, there is no way to think about gods or religion without it being nonsense, unless you're trapped inside that indoctrination/brainwashing/fear cycle and can't see past that. If you can see what nonsense it is, then it also becomes obvious that such nonsensical mythology would need some fairly hefty evidence to make it plausibly credible. But we have no hefty evidence, not even thin wispy evidence, no evidence at all.

Which leads me to the most compelling reason of all:

6. God is supposed to be omniscient, so he knows all of this. Even if he has a grand plan so beyond my comprehension that only he can figure it out, then his omniscient brain has to know how it looks to me, and to everyone else who see things this way. And yet he's still supposedly going to cast me into eternal suffering for using my brain that he allegedly gave me, because I figured out that he's nonsense without him ever bothering to steer me in the right direction, knowingly sending me to hell forever because I am doing exactly what he designed me to do. That's just stupid, evil malevolence. And while I submit that it might be possible for god to be stupid, evil, and malevolent, I also submit that he could do a much better job of that, too, so he would have to be stupid, evil, malevolent, and incredibly incompetent - hard to believe for an entity that could create all this.

Actually, impossible to believe.

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05-04-2013, 06:50 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
I must say I find your last post startling. I'm not flattering you when I say that you've come off as more on the ball than a lot of folks here but all six of your "logical objections" are rather basic in nature and answered well by a first-year Christian believer. I'm not belittling your answers, I'm just kind of surprised. Let me address this:
Quote:1. Not a shred of evidence. None. No answered prayers, no miracles, no verifiable history, no "hey, check it out, I'm god". Nothing.
IF Jesus came to Earth in the way the Bible describes, we would have the polar opposite of what you describe, right? A God who condescends to visit us as a person, teaches for years, touches people directly (153) in the gospels that we see, heals thousands, shows love, empathy and wisdom, etc.

I'm willing to address your five other points but am not sure how fruitful that would be. For example, when I think of God's omniscience I think, "Sure, He knew I'd need a Savior and provided a great and clear one."
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05-04-2013, 08:28 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(05-04-2013 06:50 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I must say I find your last post startling. I'm not flattering you when I say that you've come off as more on the ball than a lot of folks here but all six of your "logical objections" are rather basic in nature and answered well by a first-year Christian believer. I'm not belittling your answers, I'm just kind of surprised. Let me address this:
Quote:1. Not a shred of evidence. None. No answered prayers, no miracles, no verifiable history, no "hey, check it out, I'm god". Nothing.
IF Jesus came to Earth in the way the Bible describes, we would have the polar opposite of what you describe, right? A God who condescends to visit us as a person, teaches for years, touches people directly (153) in the gospels that we see, heals thousands, shows love, empathy and wisdom, etc.

I'm willing to address your five other points but am not sure how fruitful that would be. For example, when I think of God's omniscience I think, "Sure, He knew I'd need a Savior and provided a great and clear one."

The trouble is, Jebus never actually talked about "personal" salvation. All that crap was added later by later authors. It really does not fit with Hebrew culture. Oh that's right. You know nothing about the Ancient Near East. Never mind. Continue trolling, and wasting your employer's time and money.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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05-04-2013, 10:51 AM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
(05-04-2013 06:50 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I must say I find your last post startling. I'm not flattering you when I say that you've come off as more on the ball than a lot of folks here but all six of your "logical objections" are rather basic in nature and answered well by a first-year Christian believer. I'm not belittling your answers, I'm just kind of surprised. Let me address this:
Quote:1. Not a shred of evidence. None. No answered prayers, no miracles, no verifiable history, no "hey, check it out, I'm god". Nothing.
IF Jesus came to Earth in the way the Bible describes, we would have the polar opposite of what you describe, right? A God who condescends to visit us as a person, teaches for years, touches people directly (153) in the gospels that we see, heals thousands, shows love, empathy and wisdom, etc.

I'm willing to address your five other points but am not sure how fruitful that would be. For example, when I think of God's omniscience I think, "Sure, He knew I'd need a Savior and provided a great and clear one."

Jesus probably didn't exist. Almost certainly not as a carpenter from Nazareth.

IF god condescended to show the world that he exists, to teach us for years, to heal thousands, to show love, empathy, and wisdom, then why did he pick one little dusty, ignorant, back-end corner of the world to show his love, empathy, and wisdom to a tiny little fraction of the world's population? Why couldn't he also have made an appearance in a few handy population centers in Europe, China, South and Central America, etc? Why did he "wisely" choose only to maybe reveal himself to a handful of people in one tiny place while "lovingly" letting billions of humans burn in hell for eternity?

As for a "great and clear" savior, who probably never existed, is only "known" about because a handful of people with a clear agenda to propagate a new religion chose to write about this mythological savior decades after he allegedly died, then their writings were poorly copied, poorly translated, and deliberately altered, countless times of the last couple thousand years, until what we have today is garbled, self-contradicting nonsense.

If this is "great and clear" in your mind, then let me tell you about another savior, Odysseus, who was written about long before Jesus, who saved more people, performed more miracles, and had more words written about him during his life rather than after it. What, Odysseus is a myth? Why, yes he is, but so is Jesus.

Anything but "great and clear".

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05-04-2013, 12:07 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Quote:The trouble is, Jebus never actually talked about "personal" salvation. All that crap was added later by later authors. It really does not fit with Hebrew culture. Oh that's right. You know nothing about the Ancient Near East. Never mind. Continue trolling, and wasting your employer's time and money.
Dude, you've lost it, I think, utterly. 1. The HB contains clear references to individual salvation. No, I'm not going to post them here. Clearly you've all but memorized the Bible since you have so many contradictions to vend on us. 2. John 3:16... heard of it? Whoever trusts... will not perish... but shall have life everlasting. How about John 5:24: "He who hears my Word and believes on Him who sent me has eternal life and shall not come into judgment but has passed out of death into life." Etc.

Of course we may date some of the epistles to before the gospels which would make the gospels the later authors you mentioned, but I'm unsure your mind would not be warped by the gyrations you have to do to recant your position (yawn) about Pauline doctoring of the doctrines, what with also Jesus's own brothers completely agreeing with Pauline doctrine. (Sigh).
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05-04-2013, 12:10 PM
RE: Run The Gauntlet
Quote:Jesus probably didn't exist. Almost certainly not as a carpenter from Nazareth.

IF god condescended to show the world that he exists, to teach us for years, to heal thousands, to show love, empathy, and wisdom, then why did he pick one little dusty, ignorant, back-end corner of the world to show his love, empathy, and wisdom to a tiny little fraction of the world's population? Why couldn't he also have made an appearance in a few handy population centers in Europe, China, South and Central America, etc? Why did he "wisely" choose only to maybe reveal himself to a handful of people in one tiny place while "lovingly" letting billions of humans burn in hell for eternity?

As for a "great and clear" savior, who probably never existed, is only "known" about because a handful of people with a clear agenda to propagate a new religion chose to write about this mythological savior decades after he allegedly died, then their writings were poorly copied, poorly translated, and deliberately altered, countless times of the last couple thousand years, until what we have today is garbled, self-contradicting nonsense.

If this is "great and clear" in your mind, then let me tell you about another savior, Odysseus, who was written about long before Jesus, who saved more people, performed more miracles, and had more words written about him during his life rather than after it. What, Odysseus is a myth? Why, yes he is, but so is Jesus.

Anything but "great and clear".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

You hit the nail on the head. Israel is a tiny little place continually swarmed by enemies. We have 1) an analogy for the victorious Christian life or martyrdom 2) Multiple parallels between hatred for the Jews and for Christians 3) a little nothing country whose people are the sole ones to be in diaspora 20 centuries before returning to their land and overwhelmingly demolishing their neighbors (then relenting and letting them be) in four wars and multiple conflicts since '48. Nail on the head, bro!

As for great and clear, how many Odysseans do you know? There are many, many, many, many millions of Christian believers throughout history as well as the preserved Israelites as mentioned. CLEAR.
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