Russia unveils 'Satan 2'
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19-11-2016, 01:55 PM
RE: Russia unveils 'Satan 2'
(19-11-2016 01:19 PM)yakherder Wrote:  
(19-11-2016 12:13 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  Why?

Because once those with a conflicting agenda realize that the threat of force from the global alliance is A: merely a bluff and B: stretched too thin to enforce the (ideally) democratically agreed upon global agenda even if it were willing to try, they will simply do as they wish.

And if the non superpowers are too reliant on the support of the superpowers to keep the alliance afloat, then the leverage said superpowers gain from that dependence makes the opinions of the non superpowers irrelevant.

But even if some countries don't pay as much as they should be, it's in everyone's interests, including the super powers that no one fires off a missile.
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19-11-2016, 02:05 PM
RE: Russia unveils 'Satan 2'
(19-11-2016 01:55 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(19-11-2016 01:19 PM)yakherder Wrote:  Because once those with a conflicting agenda realize that the threat of force from the global alliance is A: merely a bluff and B: stretched too thin to enforce the (ideally) democratically agreed upon global agenda even if it were willing to try, they will simply do as they wish.

And if the non superpowers are too reliant on the support of the superpowers to keep the alliance afloat, then the leverage said superpowers gain from that dependence makes the opinions of the non superpowers irrelevant.

But even if some countries don't pay as much as they should be, it's in everyone's interests, including the super powers that no one fires off a missile.

Absolutely. I don't think any rational person or entity wants to see a launch. But they do want leverage over those with conflicting interests, and at this point in time sophisticated nuclear capabilities are the pinnacle of leverage.

And outside the remote possibility of a one world government firmly in control of its vast population and all their miscellaneous complaints with each other, I don't see that changing anytime soon.

'Murican Canadian
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19-11-2016, 02:07 PM
RE: Russia unveils 'Satan 2'
(19-11-2016 01:31 PM)yakherder Wrote:  New Zealand is a member of the commonwealth and reliant on both their threat of force as well as a trade network established by their history of conquest.
Wehave many trade agreements, trade with England, with US, with Australia, with China etc. We are an exporting nation. We are much more supporters of free trade than US is. If you guys go all protectionist then our arrangements with other nations will be to our mutual benefit, US will be left behind.

(19-11-2016 01:31 PM)yakherder Wrote:  And whatever the US and Russia do, rest assured the only say in the matter New Zealand will have will stem from that relationship.
Our only worry is that you guys nuke the whole planet. We have no concern about either Russia or US trying to conquer us.

(19-11-2016 01:31 PM)yakherder Wrote:  We don't need anything New Zealand has,
The arrogance of the US will be their downfall. Going all protectionist is the worst thing you guys could do.

(19-11-2016 01:31 PM)yakherder Wrote:  but we do need something the Commonwealth as a whole has. They are looking out for your interests, and their interests are backed by nuclear weapons and military force.
NZ fought in WWI and WWII, we were one of the first to declare war on Germany, while US sat back and watched. We do our bit for world peace, we are a peace keeping nation not a warmongering one, we look to make allies not enemies, we offer the world trade, especially dairy and other primary produce, we represent democracy and freedom of individual's rights. We don't get excited about military might. I do find it fascinating when an American company comes to NZ, tries to promote some product or IT method and comes up with heaps of military analogies, perhaps it goes down well in Texas, maybe in other US states as well, but it gets many cringes over here.

US pulled out of the ANZUS treaty because of NZ's anti nuclear stance. Which is ironic because you guys go to war on other countries citing that they have WMD as your excuse for invading. But regardless, even without the ANZUS treaty, NZ has been safe. We don't need US military might.
NZ relations with America has strengthed under Obama, they guy was fantastic, all that will be lost under Trump and this gung ho attitude that US is great and don't need the rest of the world.
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19-11-2016, 02:25 PM
RE: Russia unveils 'Satan 2'
(19-11-2016 02:05 PM)yakherder Wrote:  and at this point in time sophisticated nuclear capabilities are the pinnacle of leverage.
Diplomacy and respect are the pinnacle of leverage and peace.

"sophisticated nuclear capabilities" is the pinnacle of fear, mistrust, and the need for those around you to arm themselves as well, and point those weapons at you.
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19-11-2016, 02:32 PM
RE: Russia unveils 'Satan 2'
(19-11-2016 02:25 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(19-11-2016 02:05 PM)yakherder Wrote:  and at this point in time sophisticated nuclear capabilities are the pinnacle of leverage.
Diplomacy and respect are the pinnacle of leverage and peace.

"sophisticated nuclear capabilities" is the pinnacle of fear, mistrust, and the need for those around you to arm themselves as well, and point those weapons at you.

That sounds great, and you'll probably even get a few likes for it. But the real world isn't sunshine and rainbows.

'Murican Canadian
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19-11-2016, 02:39 PM
RE: Russia unveils 'Satan 2'
(19-11-2016 02:32 PM)yakherder Wrote:  
(19-11-2016 02:25 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Diplomacy and respect are the pinnacle of leverage and peace.

"sophisticated nuclear capabilities" is the pinnacle of fear, mistrust, and the need for those around you to arm themselves as well, and point those weapons at you.

That sounds great, and you'll probably even get a few likes for it. But the real world isn't sunshine and rainbows.
Most countries don't have nukes, how do you think we get by?

Do you really think that the cold war or creation of even more nukes is benefiting your country?

Why is it that US has so many enemies? Why is it that NZ don't have many enemies?
I think you guys go way overboard.
Creating alliances, mutually beneficial trade arrangements, minding your own business, and being generally respectful and friendly is a valid path to take. The days of conquering your neighbors in order to expand your empire are long gone.
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19-11-2016, 03:39 PM
RE: Russia unveils 'Satan 2'
If the shit goes down, you can check your chances of survival here.

*For entertainment purposes only* Wink
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19-11-2016, 04:34 PM
RE: Russia unveils 'Satan 2'
(19-11-2016 03:39 PM)pablo Wrote:  If the shit goes down, you can check your chances of survival here.

*For entertainment purposes only* Wink

I would escape the fireball and shockwave within an inch of my life (if the Tsar Bomba dropped).

Then die a horrendous death a lil later cuz my whole body would be one gnarly third degree burn D:

Ignorance is not to be ignored.

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19-11-2016, 04:34 PM
RE: Russia unveils 'Satan 2'
(19-11-2016 01:09 PM)Fireball Wrote:  As for super fast missiles, I wonder how far our laser defense capability has evolved? The US Navy has fielded a demo.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buz...sers-17711

Not nearly that fast. While the laser defense system is pretty awesome, it is designed to shoot down cruise missiles and errant aircraft being used as same... traveling at less than Mach 2, max.

For an incoming ICBM warhead, we're talking Mach 23.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-36_(missile)

If they use the new hypersonic maneuvering heads, that speed "slows" to between Mach 7 and Mach 12, in order to duck and dodge.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news...068550.cms

So no, the new systems would not have a chance of shooting it down. The engagement time would be far too short between the max range of the laser and the warhead arriving on-target. The beam isn't instant; it has to stay focused on target for a few seconds in order to heat it to the point of destruction-- that's on a cruise missile, NOT a warhead designed to reenter the atmosphere, which could absorb a lot more heat energy.

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19-11-2016, 04:42 PM
RE: Russia unveils 'Satan 2'
(19-11-2016 02:39 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(19-11-2016 02:32 PM)yakherder Wrote:  That sounds great, and you'll probably even get a few likes for it. But the real world isn't sunshine and rainbows.
Most countries don't have nukes, how do you think we get by?

Do you really think that the cold war or creation of even more nukes is benefiting your country?

Why is it that US has so many enemies? Why is it that NZ don't have many enemies?
I think you guys go way overboard.
Creating alliances, mutually beneficial trade arrangements, minding your own business, and being generally respectful and friendly is a valid path to take. The days of conquering your neighbors in order to expand your empire are long gone.

I agree with your point of view and generally don't care too much for jingoism of any shade. At the end of the day, the impressively armed Russia can barely take care of the needs of its citizens, while poorly armed New Zealand fares a lot better.

Still, MAD is a real if unfortunate thing.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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