Russian Supreme Court bans JWs as "extremist organization"
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22-04-2017, 12:42 AM
RE: Russian Supreme Court bans JWs as "extremist organization"
Does this mean someone could be punished for saying they are a JW? Or is it just hitting at an organizational level?

It does sound like political bullying from what you've said.

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22-04-2017, 02:19 AM
RE: Russian Supreme Court bans JWs as "extremist organization"
So it's an age old question ... the collective vs. the individual.

How far can a superstructure (e.g. a state) go in order to immunise the population against a virus given that some individuals will suffer as a result?

Allowing personal choice defeats the objective of 'community immunity'.

There's not much point in building a city wall to protect the populace from the marauding barbarians if individuals are allowed to knock holes in it to make doorways and then leave the doors open.

But as with the complaints about the pharmaceutical industry in the US regarding vaccinations, when big business controls the narrative about whether the barbarians are real or just a fiction to keep the individuals contained and stifles debate, due process is the victim in the name of profit.

In this case, the big business is the Russian Orthodox Church.

So what tactics can be used...
quarantine?
vaccination?
control mechanisms to allow the build up of natural immunity?

The Philippines failed to install anti-virus software to protect themselves from the Spanish Catholicism-virus and look what happened to them.. poverty, high birth rate, poor education ... all the conditions needed for the virus to perpetuate.

Russia has the same policy with Scientology and many other countries haven't recognised it as a religion.

The Japanese have made several attempts over the centuries to protect themselves from the Buddhism-virus which threatened to destabilise their societies with ultimately some success by adopting the Hobbesian model of domestication.

Singapore has gone against the Hobbesian model by refusing to declare a state religion (which can be domesticated) and is closer to the US's separation model but not quite.

Last year in Singapore I taught a class at the the end of which a young lady handed me a WatchTower pamphlet. We'd spent 5 days together and I had no idea she was of that ilk. And in 5 days I can get in many a surreptitious dig at religions but she hadn't shown any signs of being offended.

I took the pamphlet and asked her if she was asking me to critique it to highlight the errors. She just shyly smiled and said, "we have to hand these out". Blink

Later I looked into Singapore's stance on the JWs

Quote:The Government restricts certain religious groups by application of the Societies Act. In 1982 the Minister for Home Affairs dissolved the Holy Spirit Association for the Unification of World Christianity, also known as the Unification Church.

In 1972 the Government deregistered the Singapore Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses on the grounds that its existence was prejudicial to public welfare and order because its members refuse to perform military service (obligatory for all male citizens), salute the flag, or swear oaths of allegiance to the state.

At the time, there were approximately 200 Jehovah's Witnesses in the country; as of 2007 there were approximately two thousand.[citation needed] Although the Court of Appeals in 1996 upheld the rights of members of Jehovah's Witnesses to profess, practice, and propagate their religious belief, and the Government does not arrest members for being believers, the result of deregistration has been to make public meetings of Jehovah's Witnesses illegal. Nevertheless, since the 1996 ruling, no charges have been brought against persons attending or holding Jehovah's Witness meetings in private homes.
(bolding, mine)

Fairly reasonable virus protection... i.e. not too heavy handed.

There's more...

Quote:The Government can also influence religious practice through the Maintenance of Religious Harmony Act. The act was passed in 1990 and revised in 2001 in response to actions that the Government viewed as threats to religious harmony. This includes aggressive and "insensitive" proselytizing and "the mixing of religion and politics." The act established the Presidential Council on Religious Harmony, which reports to the Minister for Home Affairs and is empowered to issue restraining orders against leaders and members of religious groups to prevent them from carrying out political activities, "exciting disaffection against" the Government, creating "ill will" between religious groups, or carrying out subversive activities.

... which seems similar to the Russian stance.

Same source ...
Quote:The Compulsory Education Act of 2000 mandates attendance at public schools for all children, with few exceptions. In response to concern from the Malay/Muslim community regarding the fate of madrassahs, the Government temporarily exempted madrassah students from compulsory school attendance, allowing attendance at a madrassah in lieu of a public school. However, according to local press reports, if a madrassah does not meet minimum academic standards by 2008, its students would have to transfer either to a madrassah that does meet such standards or to a public school.[citation needed]
There were no religious prisoners or detainees in the country.

So education seems to be the key to protection and immunisation against a destructive meme (mind virus) rather than heavy handed police tactics.

It's a yin-yang thing ... chaos vs. order ... getting the balance right between the chaos of full, uncontrolled, freedom of individual (and group organised) expression and action vs. the order (harmony/stagnation) imposed by totalitarianism.

Or putting it in other ways... diversity vs. assimilation or; barbarian/Darwinian natural selection vs. civilsation.

As ever, it's context-dependent... the rights and wrongs of the yin-yang balancing act depend upon the current baseline and threshold tolerances.

Undecided

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22-04-2017, 02:39 AM
RE: Russian Supreme Court bans JWs as "extremist organization"
This is a bit different to immunizing the population DLJ. For one, preventing diseases saves lives.
Stopping someone practice a religion simply because it's not your religion.. well what does that accomplish besides increasing the power of your religion and the government friendly with said religion?

This isn't exactly an argument of individual v collective because in this case the collective isn't "protected" from anything they're just further oppressed that little bit extra.
It's not an either or situation, you can have some points that can be argued individual v collective and others that can't. This is certainly one of the later.

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22-04-2017, 03:21 AM
RE: Russian Supreme Court bans JWs as "extremist organization"
(22-04-2017 02:19 AM)DLJ Wrote:  So it's an age old question ... the collective vs. the individual.

There's an argument to be made that allowing a greater diversity of religious opinions offsets the disadvantages of each for the general population. I know as an atheist, I would rather live in a religiously diverse culture than a religiously monolithic culture.
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22-04-2017, 03:45 AM
RE: Russian Supreme Court bans JWs as "extremist organization"
(22-04-2017 02:39 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  ...
This isn't exactly an argument of individual v collective because in this case the collective isn't "protected" from anything they're just further oppressed that little bit extra.
It's not an either or situation, you can have some points that can be argued individual v collective and others that can't. This is certainly one of the later.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I'm saying that the state (and by extension the state recognised church) represents the collective.

They are the oppressor in this case, not the oppressed.

Unless you are arguing that the JW's are the collective?

Unsure

(22-04-2017 03:21 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(22-04-2017 02:19 AM)DLJ Wrote:  So it's an age old question ... the collective vs. the individual.

There's an argument to be made that allowing a greater diversity of religious opinions offsets the disadvantages of each for the general population. I know as an atheist, I would rather live in a religiously diverse culture than a religiously monolithic culture.

I agree. Singapore seems to have managed that.

But they are also cautious about the particularly virulent strains e.g. Moonies etc.

Yes

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22-04-2017, 03:46 AM
RE: Russian Supreme Court bans JWs as "extremist organization"
(22-04-2017 03:21 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  I know as an atheist, I would rather live in a religiously diverse culture than a religiously monolithic culture.

Make that diverse rather than monolithic - period. This is only about religion on the outside. It's the state cracking down on everyone that however mildly isn't in line with their agenda.

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22-04-2017, 05:16 AM
RE: Russian Supreme Court bans JWs as "extremist organization"
I really don't like seeing the Russians fucking with the JWs...

If Russia was more welcoming, we'd have less of them here....


Heh

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22-04-2017, 11:21 AM
RE: Russian Supreme Court bans JWs as "extremist organization"
I hate how religion WORLDWIDE even under the same umbrella labels, divides humans politically, even within the same nation. And as much as I hate what religion does to human thought, banning a religion through government is inhumane. You can ban monopolies of power, you can ban ideas that oppress other groups and minorities and women, and laws should exist that parents cannot use their beliefs to deny children health care.

But the Russians are as bad in doing that to JWs as what America did in the past to blacks and still today in trying to deny women health care, and still attempt to deny LGBT equality.

Bans do not work. Only equal protection and the ability to question any majority or minority. This is what theocracies do. If Americans on the right don't like that, then look in the mirror, you are yourselves attempting to turn back the clock on human rights here.

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22-04-2017, 11:37 AM
RE: Russian Supreme Court bans JWs as "extremist organization"
(22-04-2017 05:16 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  I really don't like seeing the Russians fucking with the JWs...

If Russia was more welcoming, we'd have less of them here....


Heh

Yet some people in this country want to turn the clock back and ban certain people too on top of trying to control the bodies of women, HERE, and are still freaking out that LGBT exist, and those morons base that crap on religion too.

Wonder which party advocates being assholes to entire groups? FYI The majority of Russians are Russian Orthodox Christians. So here we have an example of Christians oppressing another sect of Christianity.

I don't like the JWs knocking on my door but I simply tell them to leave. But unless they are trying to pass religious laws I live under, I don't give a fuck. Unless an individual theist is making threats to me, I don't assume their guilt.

Scientology is just as hocum as JW but so is every religion to me. But in a free country we don't ban anyone. They have a right to exist, even if I think they are full of crap.

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22-04-2017, 12:31 PM
RE: Russian Supreme Court bans JWs as "extremist organization"
(22-04-2017 11:37 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(22-04-2017 05:16 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  I really don't like seeing the Russians fucking with the JWs...

If Russia was more welcoming, we'd have less of them here....


Heh

Yet some people in this country want to turn the clock back and ban certain people too on top of trying to control the bodies of women, HERE, and are still freaking out that LGBT exist, and those morons base that crap on religion too.

Wonder which party advocates being assholes to entire groups? FYI The majority of Russians are Russian Orthodox Christians. So here we have an example of Christians oppressing another sect of Christianity.

I don't like the JWs knocking on my door but I simply tell them to leave. But unless they are trying to pass religious laws I live under, I don't give a fuck. Unless an individual theist is making threats to me, I don't assume their guilt.

Scientology is just as hocum as JW but so is every religion to me. But in a free country we don't ban anyone. They have a right to exist, even if I think they are full of crap.

Walmart. Housewares department. Sense of humor. Get one already.....


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