Ruthless Yahweh - How Yahweh is not moral(NSFW, gore)
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13-10-2015, 12:24 PM
RE: Ruthless Yahweh - How Yahweh is not moral(NSFW, gore)
(12-10-2015 08:30 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(12-10-2015 08:22 PM)Alla Wrote:  Jesus didn't give commandment to write the Bible. The Bible doesn't have all writings of all His Apostles. The Bible is creation of men whom God didn't choose. Those men had to decide which book they should include and which book they shouldn't include in canon. The Bible has many errors and doesn't have fullness of the Gospel.
And Jesus revealed many things that only His disciples had to know and not the whole world. It calls "hidden manna"
Great, so we throw the bible out. It's nonsensical trash anyways.

But now what?
Now there is God(your Heavenly Father) and you. You may receive revelations from Him.
But if He never gives you revelations than you should do this(my friendly advice): follow your own moral compass. If you do this you will be just fine. Thumbsup

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13-10-2015, 12:53 PM
RE: Ruthless Yahweh - How Yahweh is not moral(NSFW, gore)
(13-10-2015 12:24 PM)Alla Wrote:  Now there is God(your Heavenly Father) and you. You may receive revelations from Him.
Has never happened for me. How would I recognise it if it did happen?

(13-10-2015 12:24 PM)Alla Wrote:  But if He never gives you revelations than you should do this(my friendly advice): follow your own moral compass. If you do this you will be just fine. Thumbsup
I either don't have a moral compass or I don't know how to access it.
I instead use my own brain, my own thoughts towards my decision making. If I do X will it ultimately benefit me.
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13-10-2015, 01:15 PM
RE: Ruthless Yahweh - How Yahweh is not moral(NSFW, gore)
(13-10-2015 12:53 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Has never happened for me. How would I recognise it if it did happen?
1. It is hard to explain as it is hard to explain how yucca taste if you have no idea what it is.
2. When it happens you will know and you will be convinced.
3. You can't ask me this question. Do you have any reason to trust me?
(13-10-2015 12:53 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I either don't have a moral compass or I don't know how to access it.
Sorry, I don't believe it.
If you ever felt guilty you have moral compass. If you ever regretted that you didn't help someone when you could, you have moral compass. If you felt that you wanted to stand up for someone and you did, you have moral compass.
Now tell me please that you don't have moral compass.
(13-10-2015 12:53 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I instead use my own brain, my own thoughts towards my decision making. If I do X will it ultimately benefit me.
Yes, you use your brain and you use your "heart". That is all you need to have moral compass.
If you were wrong you learn from your own mistake. You also may USE advice of someone who has more knowledge and experience in something and whom you trust of course.

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13-10-2015, 03:13 PM
RE: Ruthless Yahweh - How Yahweh is not moral(NSFW, gore)
(13-10-2015 01:15 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(13-10-2015 12:53 PM)Stevil Wrote:  How would I recognise it if it did happen?
2. When it happens you will know and you will be convinced.
If what you say is correct, then it has never happened to me.
(13-10-2015 01:15 PM)Alla Wrote:  3. You can't ask me this question. Do you have any reason to trust me?
I'm interested in your own opinion and experience. You represent yet another data point amongst a vast amount of data points to be gathered. I don't need to trust you. I trust myself though and am interested in hearing views from people that are foreign to me.
(13-10-2015 01:15 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(13-10-2015 12:53 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I either don't have a moral compass or I don't know how to access it.
Sorry, I don't believe it.
If you ever felt guilty you have moral compass. If you ever regretted that you didn't help someone when you could, you have moral compass. If you felt that you wanted to stand up for someone and you did, you have moral compass.
Now tell me please that you don't have moral compass.
I've done away with guilt.
There is no point looking backwards and wishing I had made different choices. Wishing is for children with untethered and fertile imaginations. I make my choices given the information I have at the time, given the state of mind I am in at that point in time. It would be impossible for me to make an alternative choice at that point in time.
Live is to be lived, we can't avoid making choices, we cant be indecisive. We make our choices and stand behind them and move forwards. If it turns out that our choices had a detrimental outcome that wasn't just down to a low odds roll of the dice then we tuck that away as input for future choices.
Guilt is irrational. We can only affect the future and therefore must look forward.
(13-10-2015 01:15 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(13-10-2015 12:53 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I instead use my own brain, my own thoughts towards my decision making. If I do X will it ultimately benefit me.
Yes, you use your brain and you use your "heart". That is all you need to have moral compass.
I don't understand the concept of "use your heart". I know it is a metaphor for compassion. What is the utility of employing compassion? How will this ultimately benefit me? Do I employ compassion at my own detriment? at the detriment of my own family?
It seems to me to be an irrational approach to decision making.
If behaving compassionately can improve my chances of making friends and associates and hence open doors then it has some utility but if going to extremes can ruin my own future or make me some new age vegan that cries at the thought of accidentally treading on an ant then compassion is something to be weary of. Better to think things through, better to analyse the impact of my decisions and actions and how these work towards bettering my own future.
(13-10-2015 01:15 PM)Alla Wrote:  If you were wrong you learn from your own mistake. You also may USE advice of someone who has more knowledge and experience in something and whom you trust of course.
I am the best person positioned to make my own decisions, I cannot delegate that task. I have no problems making decisions, I have no fear of feeling guilt or of making wrong decisions. No decision is ever wrong.
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13-10-2015, 05:47 PM (This post was last modified: 13-10-2015 05:55 PM by Alla.)
RE: Ruthless Yahweh - How Yahweh is not moral(NSFW, gore)
(13-10-2015 03:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If what you say is correct, then it has never happened to me.
I believe you.
(13-10-2015 03:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I'm interested in your own opinion and experience. You represent yet another data point amongst a vast amount of data points to be gathered. I don't need to trust you. I trust myself though and am interested in hearing views from people that are foreign to me.
I understand. But you really don't need to know about my personal experience.
1) you can not know whether my experience is really my "experience" or not. I may lie to you that is why I talked about trust.
2) you don't need to know about my experience because you want be able to use it. Then what is the point of this knowledge?
3) when or if you have your own experience then you will recognize it and you will know what to do with this knowledge.
4) then you may understand me and I may understand you.
(13-10-2015 03:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(13-10-2015 01:15 PM)Alla Wrote:  Sorry, I don't believe it.
If you ever felt guilty you have moral compass. If you ever regretted that you didn't help someone when you could, you have moral compass. If you felt that you wanted to stand up for someone and you did, you have moral compass.
Now tell me please that you don't have moral compass.
I've done away with guilt.
There is no point looking backwards and wishing I had made different choices.
Yes, there is a point. If because of your choice someone you care about was hurt you will feel bad about it, you would wish you didn't make this choice. You will try not to make this choice anymore. Then you have moral compass. If you are going to tell me that you have no one to love/ to care about and you never wronged him/her/them(intentionally or un-intentionally) and then you didn't look back and wished you didn't make that choice then I don't believe it.
(13-10-2015 03:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Wishing is for children with untethered and fertile imaginations.
Children are so genuine. It is good for adults to be as genuine as children.
(13-10-2015 03:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I make my choices given the information I have at the time, given the state of mind I am in at that point in time. It would be impossible for me to make an alternative choice at that point in time.
OK, but you still may not know if it is right choice or the best choice. And when you know later it was wrong or not your very best choice you may regret.
The reason why I don't believe you don't regret about your mistakes is because every person wishes to himself/herself only good/right and the best.
If you know that you could make a better choice and you wish yourself only good you will regret.
I still believe you have moral compass.
(13-10-2015 03:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Live is to be lived, we can't avoid making choices, we cant be indecisive. We make our choices and stand behind them and move forwards. If it turns out that our choices had a detrimental outcome that wasn't just down to a low odds roll of the dice then we tuck that away as input for future choices.
You said it very well.
(13-10-2015 03:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Guilt is irrational. We can only affect the future and therefore must look forward.
If you love someone and if you hurt someone you love (made a wrong choice) you will feel guilt. May be it is irrational but it is natural. I believe that you are this kind of person. Then you have moral compass.
(13-10-2015 03:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I don't understand the concept of "use your heart". I know it is a metaphor for compassion.
I didn't talk about compassion. I was talking about this: sometimes we know for sure what choice we have to make/what choice is right choice. Sometimes we are not sure but we may feel(talking about "heart") good about it or we may feel(talking about "heart") bad about it.
(13-10-2015 03:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  What is the utility of employing compassion? How will this ultimately benefit me?

Those are very good questions. Those are right questions.
(13-10-2015 03:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Do I employ compassion at my own detriment? at the detriment of my own family?
You have to know what is more important for you. If you are hungry and your child is hungry you can make a choice(moral choice) between to eat the only piece of bread yourself or to give it to your hungry child.
if your moral compass tells you that it is more important that you eat this last piece of bread to sustain yourself so you can be stronger, so you can take care and find food for your child then you won't feel guilty. But if your moral compass tells you that it is more important to give it to your child and you eat it yourself, then you will fell guilty.
So, you will know what is more important - to show compassion at your own determent or not.
(13-10-2015 03:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It seems to me to be an irrational approach to decision making.
May be. But the question is this: is the right choice? or is this the best choice?
(13-10-2015 03:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If behaving compassionately can improve my chances of making friends and associates and hence open doors then it has some utility
Yes, and all this things brings you and someone else happiness.
When showing compassion brings you happiness then it is very rational.
(13-10-2015 03:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  but if going to extremes can ruin my own future or make me some new age vegan that cries at the thought of accidentally treading on an ant then compassion is something to be weary of.
I agree.
(13-10-2015 03:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I am the best person positioned to make my own decisions, I cannot delegate that task.
You are not always the person who knows what is the best for you. it can be because of lack of knowledge and personal experience. If there is someone who has more knowledge and experience he or she may know better what is the best for you. But you are THE ONLY person to make your own decisions.
(13-10-2015 03:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I have no problems making decisions, I have no fear of feeling guilt or of making wrong decisions. No decision is ever wrong.
Yes, you may say that no decision is ever wrong in a sense that even wrong decisions give you knowledge and experience.

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14-10-2015, 08:47 AM
RE: Ruthless Yahweh - How Yahweh is not moral(NSFW, gore)
If a decision has more negative results then positive ones it's a wrong one , even if if it gives more knowledge or doesn' t provoke guilty feelings.
Whatever moral compass we may or might not use, it can not be the one of the old testament God. as the movie at the beginning proved.

The concept of guilt should remain in business as we usual understand it. In morals it only leads to bad feelings of which people can only be cured by the ones who put it here, priests. To heal yourself you have to bring sacrifices. Of which the priests profit. So guilt is just the way of priests to do "business".

Even in law the guilt concept should only be about weather you're guilty or not. That a judge is going to be more severe if you don't feel guilty is even unjust. How can you be blamed for feeling not guilty?
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14-10-2015, 12:47 PM
RE: Ruthless Yahweh - How Yahweh is not moral(NSFW, gore)
(14-10-2015 08:47 AM)WillemRM Wrote:  If a decision has more negative results then positive ones it's a wrong one
Negative results in relation to whose perspective?

Let's say I get some small benefit and others get large negative results, then would my action be the wrong one from my perspective?
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14-10-2015, 04:09 PM
RE: Ruthless Yahweh - How Yahweh is not moral(NSFW, gore)
Quote:If a decision has more negative results then positive ones it's a wrong one
Negative results in relation to whose perspective?[/quote]

Let's say I get some small benefit and others get large negative results, then would my action be the wrong one from my perspective?
[/quote]

If that"s what you wanted the decision was good. Those others and probably anybody else will call it wrong of course.
If you didn't anticipate the negative results you should ask if you would take the decision again. Perspective is of course crucial to decide.
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14-10-2015, 05:15 PM
RE: Ruthless Yahweh - How Yahweh is not moral(NSFW, gore)
(14-10-2015 04:09 PM)WillemRM Wrote:  If that"s what you wanted the decision was good. Those others and probably anybody else will call it wrong of course.
If you didn't anticipate the negative results you should ask if you would take the decision again. Perspective is of course crucial to decide.
So the action can be good(right), bad(wrong) and neutral all at the same time. It's all relative to each individual making the judgement.

It comes down to each person looking out for themselves.
Person X trying to convince other people that they ought to consider the impact of their choices and actions on person X. "What about me?" type of whinging.

Then they label "transgressors" as "bad" and use that to justify treating those people poorly themselves. "Yeah, well, I excluded person Y because they are a bad person, I don't think they deserve to be involved"

The idea of morality is selfish in nature. You want others to behave in a way that benefits you, or at least is not detrimental to you, so you try to coerce them to consider your perspective, to factor that into their decision making.

I hate morally self-righteous people. They are control freaks and viscous, certainly keen to dish out moral repercussions, they tend to like jumping on band wagons and forming witch hunts. All the while they think of themselves as saints while vilifying people that don't comply to their ideals.
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14-10-2015, 06:48 PM
RE: Ruthless Yahweh - How Yahweh is not moral(NSFW, gore)
WillemRM1444834055' Wrote:  162' dateline=
If a decision has more negative results then positive ones it's a wrong one , even if if it gives more knowledge or doesn' t provoke guilty feelings.
This is how I know what choice is right and what choice is wrong.
If the consequences of my choice are self destruction or/and destruction of innocent people, then my choice was wrong.
If the consequences of my choice lead me towards my personal progress or progress of others then I know my choice was right.
But it is not all the time we have to chose between wrong or right. Many times we have to chose between good and better for us and/or others.
For example, I want to choose between 2 colleges. I have to decide which one is better for me and I have to choose what is better(if it is in my capacity /power ).
For example, Adam and Eve had to chose between good(stay in the garden forever without any progress) or better(to live in fallen world to have an opportunity to progress).
WillemRM Wrote:Whatever moral compass we may or might not use, it can not be the one of the old testament God. as the movie at the beginning proved.
God of OT doesn't ask us to follow that moral compass. God had people who were not ready for higher morals. He had to deal with what He had.

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