SCOTUS bitch slaps Texas on abortion rights.
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28-06-2016, 08:15 AM
RE: SCOTUS bitch slaps Texas on abortion rights.
(28-06-2016 06:59 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(28-06-2016 06:39 AM)Dom Wrote:  If it can't survive without a live brooder, it's not an entity at all. If it can't feel, there is no moral issue. If it can't think, it doesn't care. It's a potential human. We can argue about when it becomes human to a point - I'd be willing to entertain that it is human once it is conscious. Morally - I'd be in agreement that there needs to be empathy for it once it can feel pain.

But what is this "sanctity of life" when applied to a mass that is not viable, cannot feel and cannot think? It's woo, that's what it is.
I think it's a matter of opinion like any other moral issue. I'm not particularly interested in convincing you or anyone else that your moral views are wrong because it has no practical relevance in this case. We all agree that abortions shouldn't be outlawed.

You said they were "immoral".
Now you can't even begin to tell us what that even means, or why your opinion of what is moral or not should have ANY relevance to anyone else.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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28-06-2016, 08:17 AM
RE: SCOTUS bitch slaps Texas on abortion rights.
(28-06-2016 06:03 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(27-06-2016 09:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  OK, not a person == not an unborn child. It's just a fetus.
(28-06-2016 12:11 AM)morondog Wrote:  Is your toenail a human? What's so special about a bunch of cells? The fact that they *could grow* into a human? So what? If they die before they're even conscious what's wrong?
I've heard these dismissals so many times before and I have to say it gets tiresome. How can you look at these foetuses and think they're just "a bunch of cells"? How can you believe that killing any of these is morally equivalent to masturbating?

I've heard your mischaracterizations and straw men so many times before and I have to say it gets tiresome.
Try responding to what I've actually said. Drinking Beverage

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28-06-2016, 08:22 AM
RE: SCOTUS bitch slaps Texas on abortion rights.
(28-06-2016 07:38 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Dom, bucky, others, when you understand why you are against infanticide (and/or partial birth abortion), you will understand why prolifers are prolife. There is really no meaningful difference except where you choose to draw the line.

There is a very meaningful difference between 1st and 2nd trimester abortion and late-term abortion or infanticide; a developed brain and nervous system.

Quote:Again, in the infanticide debate, we're all prolife. Dom, bucky, do you think infanticide is morally wrong? If you don't believe in morality (like myself), then is it your preference that infanticide remain illegal? If so, then why do you want it to remain illegal?

I'm not trying to win some sort of argument, I'm just trying to help you understand the position of prolife.

The pro-life position has a completely unreasonable definition of what constitutes a human life.

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28-06-2016, 08:25 AM
RE: SCOTUS bitch slaps Texas on abortion rights.
(28-06-2016 08:17 AM)Chas Wrote:  I've heard your mischaracterizations and straw men so many times before and I have to say it gets tiresome.
Try responding to what I've actually said. Drinking Beverage
Your unwarranted snark aside, if you look at my post again, you'll see that I responded to three different people at the same time. I responded to morondog's use of the term "a bunch of cells", GirlyMan's attempt at equating abortion with masturbation and your assertion that it's "just a fetus" respectively (although in your case only with images instead of text). I never said that either of their arguments came from you, did I?

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28-06-2016, 08:39 AM
RE: SCOTUS bitch slaps Texas on abortion rights.
(28-06-2016 08:25 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(28-06-2016 08:17 AM)Chas Wrote:  I've heard your mischaracterizations and straw men so many times before and I have to say it gets tiresome.
Try responding to what I've actually said. Drinking Beverage
Your unwarranted snark aside, if you look at my post again, you'll see that I responded to three different people at the same time. I responded to morondog's use of the term "a bunch of cells", GirlyMan's attempt at equating abortion with masturbation and your assertion that it's "just a fetus" respectively (although in your case only with images instead of text). I never said that either of their arguments came from you, did I?

Your response to me was kinda lacking though. AFAICT you just said "they look human" and left it at that?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-06-2016, 08:50 AM (This post was last modified: 28-06-2016 09:02 AM by Vosur.)
RE: SCOTUS bitch slaps Texas on abortion rights.
(28-06-2016 08:14 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(28-06-2016 07:12 AM)Vosur Wrote:  I suppose it depends on whether or not you think that killing a biological organism of your own species is equivalent to dismantling a statue made out of fiberglass and plastic.
It would be a subjective judgement. Personally I have zero problem with killing a foetus.

Quote:I don't think I said anything to you that would warrant this kind of response. What gives, mate?
I was deliberately trying to be brutal to make my point. i.e. So *what* if the decision to kill the foetus is intentional? It's really *not* a big deal. It's literally like disposing of a toenail clipping or cutting out a tumour. The foetus is not conscious, most of the time, when the decision to abort is made. Late term abortions are rare and would usually be undertaken for medical reasons.
I spent a good ten minutes reading this part over and over again and I'm still not sure what to say in response. I'm just completely baffled by the stark difference between our views. I don't think I'll ever be able to understand your point of view and I can imagine that you feel the same way about mine. It's utterly alien to me. My only solace is that it doesn't really matter because neither of us, as far as I can tell, are trying to legislate our moral views.

(28-06-2016 08:15 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You said they were "immoral". Now you can't even begin to tell us what that even means, [...]
I can only repeat what I said to Dom. My view of abortion as an immoral procedure is an opinion, just like every other statement about morality (I personally don't believe in objective or absolute morality).

(28-06-2016 08:15 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  [...] or why your opinion of what is moral or not should have ANY relevance to anyone else.
Where did I say that it should have any relevance to anyone else?

Edit:

(28-06-2016 08:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  Your response to me was kinda lacking though. AFAICT you just said "they look human" and left it at that?
That sounds about right. I suppose even an adult human could be called "a bunch of cells", but that wouldn't be a particularly accurate description either. A human foetus looks much closer to a newborn child in the second and third trimester than it does to a mere bunch of cells, wouldn't you agree?

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28-06-2016, 08:59 AM
RE: SCOTUS bitch slaps Texas on abortion rights.
(28-06-2016 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  I spent a good ten minutes reading this part over and over again and I'm still not sure what to say in response. I'm just completely baffled by the stark difference between our views. ?

To understand this "moral" stance better, is the embryo as important as the woman? Is the choice between the chicken and the egg difficult for you?

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28-06-2016, 09:07 AM
RE: SCOTUS bitch slaps Texas on abortion rights.
(28-06-2016 08:59 AM)Dom Wrote:  To understand this "moral" stance better, is the embryo as important as the woman? Is the choice between the chicken and the egg difficult for you?
I don't know why you put the word "moral" in quotes, but no, that choice isn't difficult for me. The woman is more important than the embryo and I think my views on the legality of abortion attest to that.

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28-06-2016, 09:10 AM
RE: SCOTUS bitch slaps Texas on abortion rights.
(28-06-2016 08:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  I spent a good ten minutes reading this part over and over again and I'm still not sure what to say in response. I'm just completely baffled by the stark difference between our views. I don't think I'll ever be able to understand your point of view and I can imagine that you feel the same way about mine. It's utterly alien to me. My only solace is that it doesn't really matter because neither of us, as far as I can tell, are trying to legislate our moral views.

Yup. Subjective moral stuff doesn't enter into it. Currently there's a furor over consciousness or not - that to me also isn't that important. We can cheerfully talk about killing terrorists who are thinking, feeling beings, but killing babies if off the cards simply because they're conscious? Bit bizarre if you ask me.

I think killing babies that have been born is off the cards simply because we unite as a species in feeling that that's dodgy as fuck. There's no real logic behind it, nor do I think there needs to be. We act according to our evolutionary imperatives - morals if you will.

Thing is, we've got brains to deal with problems that the world throws at us that are too complex to be dealt with solely on instinct. Sure, instinct says that abortions are evil, but as you yourself have said, pure pragmatism actually trumps that. Accordingly, let's not be talking of morals when we talk of abortions and what should and should not be law. Morals are inherently subjective and cloud the issue.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-06-2016, 09:13 AM
RE: SCOTUS bitch slaps Texas on abortion rights.
(28-06-2016 09:07 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(28-06-2016 08:59 AM)Dom Wrote:  To understand this "moral" stance better, is the embryo as important as the woman? Is the choice between the chicken and the egg difficult for you?
I don't know why you put the word "moral" in quotes, but no, that choice isn't difficult for me. The woman is more important than the embryo and I think my views on the legality of abortion attest to that.

Ok. I put it in quotes because to me, it is not moral at all. It's just woo. To me, morals are based on empathy and respect. Anyway, I think we are beating a dead horse now.

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