SJWs and Same Sex Marriage movement
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29-08-2017, 10:13 PM
RE: SJWs and Same Sex Marriage movement
(29-08-2017 08:55 PM)Aractus Wrote:  
(29-08-2017 03:22 AM)MetasyntacticVariable Wrote:  The Government will be most effective at preventing Islamic extremism in Australia if it does not alienate Muslims by banning their garments. Hanson is either too stupid to recognise that or simply more interested in drawing fire and claiming victim status; either way the stunt was a dick move and the criticism from other senators was on point.

You've got a long way to go if you aim to convince anyone of the equivalence between Hanson's fearmongering and men dressing up as nuns.

I would support a ban specific to the burqa. And guess what - so would most Aussies. I think the burqa is a complete affront to our values.

https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Life/Aust...ement-long

Quote:Australian society values respect for the freedom and dignity of the individual, freedom of religion, commitment to the rule of law, Parliamentary democracy, equality of men and women and a spirit of egalitarianism that embraces mutual respect, tolerance, fair play and compassion for those in need and pursuit of the public good

The Australian values we advertise to the world differ considerably from the values that Australians commonly hold. Popular support for a burqa ban is just evidence that the typical Australian doesn't grasp ideas such as civil and political liberties, natural rights, freedom of religion, toleration etc.

The stereotype of the "no worries" laid back Aussie is largely a fiction. The typical Aussie is an ignorant, anti-intellectual xenophobe who constantly falls for the fearmongering and fake outrage of political elites.

Appeals to popularity are not logically valid because popular ideas can be wrong.
Appealing to the popular view among Australians, on a subject they are wholly unqualified to pass judgement on, is automatically a stupid thing to do. Perhaps you think that your beliefs are validated by their popularity. I sure as hell do not.

The Attorney-General's response to Hanson's proposed burqa ban illustrated the difference between an administrator making decisions based on careful consideration of expert advice and a unprincipled populist throwing red meat to her ignorant, narrow-minded base.
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29-08-2017, 10:40 PM
RE: SJWs and Same Sex Marriage movement
(29-08-2017 10:13 PM)MetasyntacticVariable Wrote:  The Australian values we advertise to the world differ considerably from the values that Australians commonly hold. Popular support for a burqa ban is just evidence that the typical Australian doesn't grasp ideas such as civil and political liberties, natural rights, freedom of religion, toleration etc.

The stereotype of the "no worries" laid back Aussie is largely a fiction. The typical Aussie is an ignorant, anti-intellectual xenophobe who constantly falls for the fearmongering and fake outrage of political elites.

I could not disagree more with those statements. I think you show a lack of understanding when you lump neo-liberal policies which Australia is built upon as being based on "ignorance" and labelling ordinary Aussies as "uneducated" and "racist".

Quote:Appeals to popularity are not logically valid because popular ideas can be wrong.

And yet democracy is based solely on popularity. If you want governance based on something other than democracy, by all means make your case. But that's not what we have I'm afraid.

Quote:The Attorney-General's response to Hanson's proposed burqa ban illustrated the difference between an administrator making decisions based on careful consideration of expert advice and a unprincipled populist throwing red meat to her ignorant, narrow-minded base.

Again, I know people who support One Nation, including close family members, and they're not ignorant and narrow-minded. Simply insulting people who disagree with you is no way to win an academic argument. Heck, most Aussies no longer support free trade - which again is an extremely successful neo-liberal policy - probably the most successful one actually. Brexit was based on exactly the same anti-free-trade rhetoric. They want to go back to protectionism and isolationism.

I don't think it's because they're ignorant though. Economics is something very few people really understand - I'm certainly not one of them - so you can't expect people to understand every political issue. But what you can expect them to understand and recognise are the problems they want solutions to. That's why I brought up energy prices - which is really a State/Territory issue, but it's the federal government as well that has put upward pressure on prices with the carbon offset credits they charge, which is really just a big huge tax on Electricity that costs households right now about $90 per year (I think) and that will lift to $150 per year a few years from now. That's something that wasn't there before that's adding $90 to people's annual bill. Yet the government is not at all trying to convince people of this policy - rather they've been ignoring it completely, they don't explain it, I have no idea where this money goes or what it's used for other than to say that there's a "carbon offset" price. So by all means feel free to explain to me why the government is trying to tell electricity companies they have to reduce their profits (again, not how capitalism works) instead of just axing the electricity tax that would immediately lower prices for everyone?

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29-08-2017, 11:17 PM
RE: SJWs and Same Sex Marriage movement
(29-08-2017 01:54 AM)Aractus Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 09:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Why shouldn't a movement evolve and advance, and why should they stay the same ?

Oops, sorry I should have clarified. I'm not saying the movement shouldn't have evolved - I think it should have moved towards same sex marriage absolutely. That is the natural progression, and you will never have full equality without it in many jurisdictions including in Australia.

But, that said I don't think it was wise for the Trans community to join the same movement - perhaps they could have been close allies, but I think that has really been to the detriment of both of the issues, but especially the case for Trans.

Fair enough, I guess. But why are you so invested as to go to the effort to analyzing the "Trans community" tactics? Are you somehow personally invested? ... Because your whole opinion is kind of boring and baseless if you're not.

#sigh
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29-08-2017, 11:25 PM
RE: SJWs and Same Sex Marriage movement
(29-08-2017 10:10 PM)Aractus Wrote:  I don't think trans people have ever really been as intentionally persecuted as gays. I'm not saying they don't face stigma and discrimination, but those have arisen mostly out of people's lack of understanding not out of their specific dislike for a group that challenges their social ideals.

Stigma and discrimination is more often than not due to people's lack of understanding, regardless of any expression of "dislike". And I don't think we need to compare who suffers more harm due to this sort of discrimination.

My point earlier was intended to simply argue that the communities are different, but that transgendered people may not have a better option than being lumped in with LGBT. Other than stating you don't like gender identity being part of LGBT, you do not really give any good reasons for it not to be part of that grouping.
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30-08-2017, 12:17 AM
RE: SJWs and Same Sex Marriage movement
Well, gender dysphoria is a medically recognised mental health condition. You need to see a doctor to confirm whether you are trans. Sure I agree that people shouldn't be treated differently because they may be trans, and there's nothing wrong with it and I wouldn't use the term "disorder". Sexuality has nothing whatsoever to do with mental health, and you don't need to see a doctor to determine whether you might be gay and to advise you on your options. They're just two completely different issues the way I see it.

I have nothing against trans people, the issue I have is with the SJWs.

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30-08-2017, 12:30 AM
RE: SJWs and Same Sex Marriage movement
(29-08-2017 10:40 PM)Aractus Wrote:  If you want governance based on something other than democracy, by all means make your case. But that's not what we have I'm afraid.

Australia is a representative democracy. Parliament governs on behalf of the people but would be extremely negligent if it let the people dictate the details of policy.

Such direct democracy would undoubtedly lead to more stupidity like Brexit. By delegating matters of national security, economics and other complex national affairs to government ministries, the country avoids destructive policies like a burqa ban.
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30-08-2017, 12:50 AM
RE: SJWs and Same Sex Marriage movement
(30-08-2017 12:17 AM)Aractus Wrote:  I have nothing against trans people, the issue I have is with the SJWs.

I don't get it. What's wrong with SJWs? You're being pretty forceful *against* them in this thread. Almost an SJW - crusading for a cause - except your cause appears to be "make daft statements about Muslims and transgender people". Dodgy

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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30-08-2017, 01:29 AM
RE: SJWs and Same Sex Marriage movement
Well they claim that marriage is a right for one thing. It's not, it's a made up institution.

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30-08-2017, 01:39 AM
RE: SJWs and Same Sex Marriage movement
(30-08-2017 01:29 AM)Aractus Wrote:  Well they claim that marriage is a right for one thing. It's not, it's a made up institution.

Oh, boohoohoo Sadcryface Jesus Christ Facepalm That's what's got your knickers in a twist? Who cares who gets married to whom, in this day and age? Are you going to say something delusional about "traditional marriage" next?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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30-08-2017, 02:18 AM
RE: SJWs and Same Sex Marriage movement
No, like I already said I support change...

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