SJWs and Same Sex Marriage movement
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30-08-2017, 09:01 AM
RE: SJWs and Same Sex Marriage movement
Wow, there are too many misconceptions to point out, so I'll just have a look at a few.

Let's use "SGM" (for Sexual and Gender Minority) rather than LGBTQQIP2SAA (LGBTQ). Combined with your position, and your non-ironic use of SJW, makes it appear as though you're mocking the over-encumbered acronym for being too inclusive and it makes me uncomfortable even using my go-to label of LGBTQ with you.

Quote:What happened, at least from what I understand, is that originally if you go back to the 80's the LGB movement didn't want anything to do with trans issues, and they were just as stigmatising to trans people as everyone else was. trans people didn't really have their own movement for anti-discrimination, so they eventually joined this one instead

So, first thing- trans people have been a part of the movement from the beginning. Trans women of color were among the first to fight back at Stonewall. So if we're going to follow your same logic, let's just call it the Gay Male movement, because Lesbians and Bisexuals have also been mocked, excluded, and stigmatized within the history of the SGM movement. Often, when we talk about SGM gains that have been made in the history of the movement, we're talking specifically about Gay Male progress alone (or at least, Gay Male progress first). Bisexuals are still a largely stigmatized group by gay males, lesbians, and straight people.

Trans people also have many of the same issues as any other SGM groups. Point of fact: I and my wife worried before I started to transition whether nor not our marriage would remain legal after transition. It very-well could have become something that the state no longer honored after I had my gender-marker legally changed. Or, if a straight Trans woman whose gender identity is not recognized falls in love with and wants to marry a man, what happens if gay marriage is illegal? In the eyes of the law, she's still considered a man, so she can't marry the person she loves?

Trans people also suffered through the AIDS epidemic and deal with violent homophobia as well as misogyny. It gets far worse if you're a person of color in any one of the SGM groups.

This is what known as intersectional discrimination and disadvantages.

Our goals aren't always united, and we have been mocked by cis-people of all sexualities. Nevertheless, there is no alternative for us and our needs are often in alignment with LGB group needs- even when we aren't fully accepted by either group. [As an aside, the SGM folks in my area have been wonderfully accepting. Some of the local drag queens got me started with how to do makeup at a "Makeup and Mustache Party" held by my trans support group a couple years ago. I go to their store for makeup all the time now and have since learned what looks best for me to avoid looking like a drag queen myself lol. Tongue]

Quote:Because it promotes the flawed idea of gender fluidity. Now, I'm not saying that some people's gender identity doesn't change as time goes on

That is gender fluidity, what you just described.

Quote: - but hey guess what half of those people then become critics of transgender theory altogether saying "I wish I never thought I was trans".

Half?? Going to need to see some numbers to support that. Some people do de-transition. It does happen, though it's somewhat rare, and the reasons for people de-transitioning vary from regret, to not being satisfied with the results, to possible loss of family and friends, to potential danger, to realizing that they were never actually trans (maybe misdiagnosed or misunderstood their own gender identity as one requiring transition when it never actually did), and more.

I've never seen any indication that the number of de-transitioners is anywhere near approaching half.

Quote:When the LGB movement started they didn't want marriage - they didn't care about it - they just wanted not to be discriminated against, not to be criminally prosecuted for being in homosexual relationships, and to have the same rights as everyone else.

Every movement has a starting point, and often part of that start is to not be criminalized anymore. But, I'm sure you can imagine that this is not ALL that they wanted. It's not JUST what they wanted. Ultimately, SGM people want the same things that cishet people want- to be able to live their lives fully and happy, enjoying the same rights and benefits as everyone else.

Most of the rest of your OP is all about the Aussie political system which I'm not familiar with at all, so I'll let you Aussies dish that out. But I'm happy to try to answer any trans-related questions that I can.

And hell, call me a SJW all you want, my friend. I fully support social justice, and being a warrior only make it sound more badass than mundane. Wink
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30-08-2017, 09:15 AM
RE: SJWs and Same Sex Marriage movement
BTW, I have to put this here but...you may see things trending about the "Nashville Statement", which is pretty much a bunch of Christians declaring how wrong anything not heterosexual and cisgender is; all I ask is...please don't hold it against the city of Nashville. We are facepalming harder than anyone else.
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30-08-2017, 09:21 AM
RE: SJWs and Same Sex Marriage movement
My guess is that a huge part of the population is actually bi - but will never know because of having found happiness with one gender and also indoctrination.

Being bi has always been more accepted in women - mostly because many males Drooling . But it was shunned in the gay/lesbian movement in San Francisco in the 70s, as well as in the straight population.

Personally, as predominantly straight but with good lesbian experiences also, I never really gave a shit. To me, only the person mattered, not their genitals. Still does.

I wish SGM was the term. You all lost me at LGBT, all the other additions are a mystery to me and I'm not looking it up. I'll never remember the QUIPSA part anyway. I think you alienate the general population with it - no one can remember it after just seeing it a couple of times, and no one is going to learn it. It only makes sense if one of the letters represents you personally. If you want to reach the great unwashed, you need to speak a language they can understand.

Just saying...

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30-08-2017, 09:58 AM
RE: SJWs and Same Sex Marriage movement
(30-08-2017 09:21 AM)Dom Wrote:  My guess is that a huge part of the population is actually bi - but will never know because of having found happiness with one gender and also indoctrination.

Being bi has always been more accepted in women - mostly because many males Drooling . But it was shunned in the gay/lesbian movement in San Francisco in the 70s, as well as in the straight population.

Personally, as predominantly straight but with good lesbian experiences also, I never really gave a shit. To me, only the person mattered, not their genitals. Still does.

I wish SGM was the term. You all lost me at LGBT, all the other additions are a mystery to me and I'm not looking it up. I'll never remember the QUIPSA part anyway. I think you alienate the general population with it - no one can remember it after just seeing it a couple of times, and no one is going to learn it. It only makes sense if one of the letters represents you personally. If you want to reach the great unwashed, you need to speak a language they can understand.

Just saying...

SGM makes sense to me, too. The more it's come up and the more I've continued to think about it, it just seems way simpler and less easy to accidentally exclude some group that maybe you didn't personally knew existed.
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30-08-2017, 10:29 PM
RE: SJWs and Same Sex Marriage movement
(30-08-2017 09:01 AM)Emma Wrote:  Trans people also suffered through the AIDS epidemic and deal with violent homophobia as well as misogyny. It gets far worse if you're a person of color in any one of the SGM groups.

The AIDS never reached epidemic here in Australia because of the response by the public health professionals here. They did that by convincing the decision makers of the day that AIDS was a threat to straight people and not just gays. Now I agree that's indicative of a systemic prejudice that existed at the time, but we should recognise that we have moved on from then and the prejudice is now less then what it used to be.

Quote:
Quote:Because it promotes the flawed idea of gender fluidity. Now, I'm not saying that some people's gender identity doesn't change as time goes on

That is gender fluidity, what you just described.

But it's not the norm, not even for trans people. As you just went on to acknowledge it isn't the norm for people to de-transition. And I suspect that's because a number of them weren't really trans but had a different mental health condition. Hence why you need to see a doctor to diagnose the condition in the first place, as without that you can have people who think they are trans but may not be. That's the reality.

The theory put forward by SJWs says that people can decide on their own gender identity, and that's really not the correct medical view.

Quote:Half?? Going to need to see some numbers to support that. Some people do de-transition. It does happen, though it's somewhat rare, and the reasons for people de-transitioning vary from regret, to not being satisfied with the results, to possible loss of family and friends, to potential danger, to realizing that they were never actually trans (maybe misdiagnosed or misunderstood their own gender identity as one requiring transition when it never actually did), and more.

When I say critics, there's a spectrum. Some are critical only about some things, others get far more critical to the point they feel they were mislead by doctors or others. So I don't mean to say that half become extreme critics.

Quote:I've never seen any indication that the number of de-transitioners is anywhere near approaching half.

That wasn't what I meant, I simply meant that a proportion probably about half (or more) of people that do de-transition become critics at one level or another of the current state of trans theory. I apologise if that wasn't clear.

A far higher proportion of trans people go into sex work compared to the general population. It was what I was thinking of before when I thought of health issues of specific importance to the cohort. In some places prostitution is actively criminalised, and worse still in those places and in third world countries where it isn't there aren't health-protective measures in place (mandatory condom use for example). Fixing that is way more important to the well-being of people then same-sex marriage. I'm not saying that SSM isn't important, but compared to putting sex workers and their customers in avoidable health risks (that ultimately just end up placing a greater burden on the healthcare system if not prevented) it pales in comparison.

Quote:Most of the rest of your OP is all about the Aussie political system which I'm not familiar with at all, so I'll let you Aussies dish that out. But I'm happy to try to answer any trans-related questions that I can.

And hell, call me a SJW all you want, my friend. I fully support social justice, and being a warrior only make it sound more badass than mundane. Wink

Thanks for sharing!

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30-08-2017, 10:47 PM
RE: SJWs and Same Sex Marriage movement
(30-08-2017 09:01 AM)Emma Wrote:  And hell, call me a SJW all you want, my friend. I fully support social justice, and being a warrior only make it sound more badass than mundane. Wink

Can I be a Social Justice Monk? I always liked their absurd movement speed, cavalcade of mystical resistances, and stellar hand-to-hand damage.

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30-08-2017, 11:12 PM
RE: SJWs and Same Sex Marriage movement
(30-08-2017 10:29 PM)Aractus Wrote:  The theory put forward by SJWs says that people can decide on their own gender identity, and that's really not the correct medical view.

Why do you care to the point that you start an SJW bashing thread?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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31-08-2017, 01:31 AM
RE: SJWs and Same Sex Marriage movement
Well for one thing health is my expertise (not that I'm an expert) so of course anything involving it is of interest to me. Like I just said a bit back, neo-liberal thought gets a bashing from both the extremes of the left and the right... I did say that perhaps free trade is the most successful neo-liberal policy, but I think multiculturalism well pre-dates it as a liberal ideal and it in fact is the most successful "neo-liberal" policy of this age. It is the policy of the ancient Romans who reckoned that their people could have their own beliefs so long as it did not involve challenging the beliefs of others. It was a far cry away from the still older Hebrew world-view that people who worshipped gods apart from yours should be put to death. Christians claimed persecution under this same policy (only because they refused to acknowledge the rights of others to worship their deities), yet it is by far the most successful "neo-liberal" policy of this age.

So yes, I find it very concerning when there are groups that want to put forward a world-view that is not coming from evidence-based-practise that seeks to judge and denigrate all those who don't adhere to it. Like I keep saying with SSM, it's just a made up human institution - there is no moral or ethical reason why anyone including opposite sex partners have any "rights" to it; and all human institutions loose all their values if their exclusivity is erased. So it has to have rules and boundaries, and yet again I think we can include same-sex couples, but not because they have a "right" to it but because I think they should be included within the bounds. I don't care for a single argument that seeks to make this about rights either for or against the argument... other than where those rights have a clear impact on health of course, and there I do have to lean towards change.

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31-08-2017, 05:41 AM
RE: SJWs and Same Sex Marriage movement
What are the non made up human institutions?

You say you're a traditionalists but other than that... what's your basis for proclaiming exclusivity Is needed, wanted, "beneficial," or whatever you see it as?

Not also sure what your basis of a "right" in this position is.

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31-08-2017, 09:35 AM
RE: SJWs and Same Sex Marriage movement
(31-08-2017 01:31 AM)Aractus Wrote:  Well for one thing health is my expertise (not that I'm an expert)

WTF ? Contradict yourself much ? So it's your "expertise" but you're not an expert. Are you drunk ?

Quote:Like I keep saying with SSM, it's just a made up human institution - there is no moral or ethical reason why anyone including opposite sex partners have any "rights" to it;

Totally and completely FALSE. False.
There are a myriad of LAWS in more places than one can name, that give rights to opposite gender unions, (tax advantages, legal recognitions, all kinds of property rights and rights of succession). ALL (as in EVERY) legally ESTABLISHED institution is "just made up". What the fuck do you want ? Stone tablets from 3 million years ago ? Your standard is meaningless and baseless. What you "keep saying" is totally ignorant bullshit.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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