SO THE EVIL EVOLUTIONIST SCIENTIST FIRED MARK H. ARMITAGE FOR DISPROVING OLD EARTH
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01-07-2015, 12:51 AM
RE: SO THE EVIL EVOLUTIONIST SCIENTIST FIRED MARK H. ARMITAGE FOR DISPROVING OLD EARTH
(27-06-2015 08:14 PM)Believer Wrote:  The video is convincing, but it distorts the truth about blood vessels and red blood cells being in Mary Schweitzer's paper.

Oh, how so?



(27-06-2015 08:14 PM)Believer Wrote:  The 60-Minutes video shows Jack Horner stating that blood vessels were found.

And generally, 60 minutes couldn't even find good journalism.... which has nothing to do with science papers either.

(27-06-2015 08:14 PM)Believer Wrote:  In a different video, we have a great explanation of the language in Mary Schweitzer's paper, starting at t=26:10 that reveals your video's distortions: Link removed

Care to comment on this?

Sadly it seem you link is some how naughty and against forum rules. Might you have another on Youtube some where?

Also, welcome to the forum.

perhaps starting a new thread?
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01-07-2015, 04:13 AM
RE: SO THE EVIL EVOLUTIONIST SCIENTIST FIRED MARK H. ARMITAGE FOR DISPROVING OLD EARTH
(01-07-2015 12:51 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Sadly it seem you link is some how naughty and against forum rules.

I think DLJ's just feelin' a bit cantankerous. Like a judge before lunch.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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01-07-2015, 01:09 PM (This post was last modified: 01-07-2015 01:15 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: SO THE EVIL EVOLUTIONIST SCIENTIST FIRED MARK H. ARMITAGE FOR DISPROVING OLD EARTH
Just before I got locked up, there were several papers I'd seen about a T-Rex femur that broke during shipping, and they found soft material inside. Evolutionary biology was delighted at the chance to recover some cells and look at dino DNA, however degraded by time and radiation... but it turned out (in the 2013 paper he referenced, but apparently didn't read entirely) that only the proteins *of the dinosaur* were preserved. Even so, Schweitzer found that the proteins proved a link to similar ones found in chickens. Dinos=birds. Confirmation!

I can't even follow the weird argument the Creationists seem to be making about histones... they're what you'd expect to find in semi-preserved (eukaryotic) dinosaur cells, and I don't know anyone who seriously argued that they were bacterial cells, only that it was necessary to be cautious and ensure they weren't bacteria that would fool us into being excited about the find. Near as I can tell, the Creationist's "counter-argument" is entirely a red herring, based on misstating what the scientists actually expected to find and did in fact find, and what it meant.

That's pretty impressive arrogance, to smear the guy in your reply for "not understanding" Schweitzer's work, and then completely and utterly misrepresenting what we'd "expect" to find in an unexpected find. No one had looked for this before (by cutting open or drilling into big dino bones) specifically because we didn't expect there to be a capacity to preserve over that much time... and in fact, we found that it did not preserve the DNA, only the proteins. That's just what you'd expect for a millions-of-years-old fossil.

I just don't get Creationists.

Here's a decent layman's summary of the Schweitzer findings and criticisms thereof.

How Schweitzer did the research.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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01-07-2015, 01:28 PM
RE: SO THE EVIL EVOLUTIONIST SCIENTIST FIRED MARK H. ARMITAGE FOR DISPROVING OLD EARTH
I don't understand all the big words but aren't they just talking about finding bone marrow in a fossil bone? Is it because after they descale it it looks spongy, kinda like bone marrow?

#sigh
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01-07-2015, 02:10 PM (This post was last modified: 01-07-2015 02:14 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: SO THE EVIL EVOLUTIONIST SCIENTIST FIRED MARK H. ARMITAGE FOR DISPROVING OLD EARTH
Yes. When it was found, some people objected that it was probably just late-introduced bacteria, and not part of the original animal, because it was just so old, they literally didn't believe it was possible that preservation could happen under any conditions. Older scientists, especially, are more reluctant to change their position, and require serious evidence before doing so. GOOD! That keeps science healthy, when the upstart must really strive to prove their case.

As usual, Creationists immediately latched onto the "controversy" between scientists in a healthy discussion and found a way to spin it so it looked like Creationism, or at least a weakness in evolutionary theory.

In fact, it's one of the Great Finds, a triumph of modern, biochemical-based evolutionary biology, even though she has a lot of work to do, finding a better specimen and getting it out of the ground quickly (before our atmosphere contaminates or degrades it much) and preventing it from being painted with the usual preservatives, which could destroy or degrade the DNA samples they never thought they had to worry about, before.

In the original find, she not only located bone marrow, she found the tiny vessels in the marrow had been preserved, and experimentally proved how it had happened, by a previously-unknown mechanism related to high iron content in the blood. They even reproduced the effect in the lab, on other (modern) specimens, showing how they could remain without being decayed by bacteria after death, which would be required in order for the specimens to survive as soft tissue long enough to be encased by the fossil bone around them.

Schweitzer had hoped to find intact DNA, but apparently it didn't survive the interval, but the proteins found did, and they were able to sequence them precisely enough to find that they were similar to modern day chickens. T-Rex is just a big ol' chicken! Smile

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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