STOP Government Marriage!!!
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09-07-2013, 05:43 PM
RE: STOP Government Marriage!!!
(09-07-2013 03:36 PM)Nemo Wrote:  Single people are NOT pooling their resources together with anyone. They have less money than everyone else! When a couple pays for a house together, it's two people paying for a single home. When a single person pays for a house, he has to do it BY HIMSELF. Surely he deserves the tax break more than couples! (Of course there are flaws with this argument, but all flaws you find with this argument WILL be found in your own argument).

The single person should also maintain fewer expenses because he or she is an individual, as opposed to an operating family.


(09-07-2013 03:36 PM)Nemo Wrote:  When the government taxes some groups, but not other groups, then it's inequality.

Oh, so I suppose you are going to criticize the tax breaks for the poor, eh?

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09-07-2013, 08:57 PM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2013 09:00 PM by Nemo.)
RE: STOP Government Marriage!!!
(09-07-2013 05:43 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(09-07-2013 03:36 PM)Nemo Wrote:  Single people are NOT pooling their resources together with anyone. They have less money than everyone else! When a couple pays for a house together, it's two people paying for a single home. When a single person pays for a house, he has to do it BY HIMSELF. Surely he deserves the tax break more than couples! (Of course there are flaws with this argument, but all flaws you find with this argument WILL be found in your own argument).

The single person should also maintain fewer expenses because he or she is an individual, as opposed to an operating family.


(09-07-2013 03:36 PM)Nemo Wrote:  When the government taxes some groups, but not other groups, then it's inequality.

Oh, so I suppose you are going to criticize the tax breaks for the poor, eh?

A married couple buys more, but they have MORE money. (Notice how you don't care about the non-married couples who pay more)

Yes, single people aren't always going to buy as much as couples. Since they tend to buy less, we can argue that they pay double, just like the regular couples. See, the single person doesn't need a tax break because he's spending less money! Oh wait! He's spending less, which means he's buying less. Married couples who pool their money pay more, but they RECEIVE more. Go figure! I guess it DOES balance out after all.

When a married couple buys 1 hamburger per person, 2 in total, how much money should they pay? Should they pay the full price of two hamburgers? Should they pay for only one burger and still receive 2? Should they pay for a burger and a half?

Do you even math, bro? DO YOU EVEN MATH?

People pool their money together so it's easier to pay for whatever it is they need. The tax break is just a way to discriminate against the non-married people. Yes, you can argue that it's just a way to help out married couples of families, but why do they deserve more help than everyone else? What makes them superior?

And the poor receive tax breaks because they're generally the ones who benefit from government programs the most anyway. It would be redundant to tax them the same rate, then provide for them more with the government programs.

Note: I won't argue that the progressive tax rate is fair - it isn't. In fact, taxation isn't fair. It's why I would like to see alternatives to government spending so we can become less and less dependent on taxation. I'm not suggesting we stop taxation and government spending all at once, it would have to be a steady progression. If we can't do away with taxation all-together, then let taxes ONLY be used on necessities and the government not be able to waste so much money foolishly.
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10-07-2013, 04:29 PM (This post was last modified: 10-07-2013 04:39 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: STOP Government Marriage!!!
(09-07-2013 08:57 PM)Nemo Wrote:  The tax break is just a way to discriminate against the non-married people.

ummm ... What is this tax break of which you speak? There is a tax PENALTY for being married.

(09-07-2013 08:57 PM)Nemo Wrote:  Do you even math, bro? DO YOU EVEN MATH? ...

Les doz sum mathz thenz, bro. For simplification let's just look at the 25% bracket.

For single filers the bracket is $36,251 – $87,850. So if it was fair to married people the bracket should be 2*$36,251-2*87,850 or $72,502 - $175,700. If there was a tax break for being married the upper end of the bracket would have to be greater than $175,700. So what is it? $72,501 – $146,400. That's a tax PENALTY since the married couple hits the 28% bracket $29,300 sooner. What about married filing separately? $36,251 – $73,200. That's a tax penalty since the spouse still hits the 28% bracket $14,650 (=$29,300/2) sooner. Not to mention increasing the likelihood of hitting the Alternative Minimum Tax limit.

Where does this silly notion that being married gives you a tax break come from?

Yous doz not haz teh codez.

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10-07-2013, 04:44 PM
RE: STOP Government Marriage!!!
This must be the most boring thread in the history of this forum... talking about tax law and shit

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10-07-2013, 04:48 PM
RE: STOP Government Marriage!!!
(10-07-2013 04:44 PM)nach_in Wrote:  This must be the most boring thread in the history of this forum... talking about tax law and shit

You must be too young to pay taxes. Tongue

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
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10-07-2013, 04:53 PM
RE: STOP Government Marriage!!!
(10-07-2013 04:48 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(10-07-2013 04:44 PM)nach_in Wrote:  This must be the most boring thread in the history of this forum... talking about tax law and shit

You must be too young to pay taxes. Tongue

envy me!!!

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10-07-2013, 06:48 PM
RE: STOP Government Marriage!!!
(10-07-2013 04:29 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(09-07-2013 08:57 PM)Nemo Wrote:  The tax break is just a way to discriminate against the non-married people.

ummm ... What is this tax break of which you speak? There is a tax PENALTY for being married.

(09-07-2013 08:57 PM)Nemo Wrote:  Do you even math, bro? DO YOU EVEN MATH? ...

Les doz sum mathz thenz, bro. For simplification let's just look at the 25% bracket.

For single filers the bracket is $36,251 – $87,850. So if it was fair to married people the bracket should be 2*$36,251-2*87,850 or $72,502 - $175,700. If there was a tax break for being married the upper end of the bracket would have to be greater than $175,700. So what is it? $72,501 – $146,400. That's a tax PENALTY since the married couple hits the 28% bracket $29,300 sooner. What about married filing separately? $36,251 – $73,200. That's a tax penalty since the spouse still hits the 28% bracket $14,650 (=$29,300/2) sooner. Not to mention increasing the likelihood of hitting the Alternative Minimum Tax limit.

Where does this silly notion that being married gives you a tax break come from?

Yous doz not haz teh codez.

Finally someone who actually did some math and explained it! Thank you.

Because of you, I will admit I was wrong about the tax reductions granted to married couples.

However, I still feel the analogy from earlier is still completely wrong, as well as the arguments defending the analogy.

I also feel that many of the perks from government marriage should be optional for any relationship. For example, if you want someone to have access to you while you're in intensive care, you should be able to decide who is allowed to visit you while you're in intensive care. I have no problem with government creating "family" contracts in which they automatically put the spouse on the list for everything, but these options should be available for anyone.
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11-07-2013, 03:48 AM (This post was last modified: 13-07-2013 08:04 AM by Logica Humano.)
RE: STOP Government Marriage!!!
(09-07-2013 08:57 PM)Nemo Wrote:  A married couple buys more, but they have MORE money. (Notice how you don't care about the non-married couples who pay more)

Because it is a choice that those non-married couples make.

(09-07-2013 08:57 PM)Nemo Wrote:  Note: I won't argue that the progressive tax rate is fair - it isn't. In fact, taxation isn't fair. It's why I would like to see alternatives to government spending so we can become less and less dependent on taxation. I'm not suggesting we stop taxation and government spending all at once, it would have to be a steady progression. If we can't do away with taxation all-together, then let taxes ONLY be used on necessities and the government not be able to waste so much money foolishly.

The concept of taxation is completely fair. Whether or not you allow your country's government to abuse your tax dollars is another thing.

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13-07-2013, 07:43 AM
RE: STOP Government Marriage!!!
Lots of good points made in these discussions.

The laws are such a mess, and there are so many of them, that extracting "marriage" out of the government is bound to be an extremely difficult task. But that doesn't mean that the effort shouldn't be made to do it.

The tax laws that provide special privileges (or penalties) for certain persons but not others are a huge part of the problem. If those were done away with, that would be a big step towards getting the government out of marriage. People should be treated equally under the law.

If people have 20% of their income taken for taxes, it shouldn't matter whether they're married or not, in the same way a sales tax on a product doesn't care if you're married or not.

If people want to pool their resources together, there are many ways that they can do that whether or not they get married (e.g. three or more adults could share a home and split expenses, as many college students do). There shouldn't be any special privileges or penalties enforced by a government to either encourage or discourage this. To repeat - people should be treated equally under the law.

The libertarian idea is that people should be able to choose what is best for them, and not be coerced by anyone (government, church, or whoever) into doing what someone else "thinks is best." Why should one group's vision of what marriage "should be" be dictated to everyone? There's no good reason for that.

I don't really have a problem with a "default option" but there is no reason that this cannot evolve without government dictating the terms. The government can recognize civil unions for whatever consenting adults want them, in whatever form they decide (medical rights, inheritance, power of attorney, etc.).

As an example of a "customized civil union" ... A couple (person A and person B) decides that for medical decisions, it will be a "regular" union (spouse makes decisions as appropriate). But for finances, they make a change. If person A dies first or is incapacitated, power of attorney goes to person B. But if person B dies first or is incapacitated, power of attorney goes to another trusted relative (because he/she is far better at managing finances than person A).

In the short term, the best solution would be converting all "legal marriages" to "civil unions." In the long term, the laws granting special benefits (as dictated by government) should be removed, and then marriage can evolve into whatever people want it to be.
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13-07-2013, 09:33 AM
RE: STOP Government Marriage!!!
(10-07-2013 04:53 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
(10-07-2013 04:48 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You must be too young to pay taxes. Tongue

envy me!!!

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