Sacrifice
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12-09-2013, 10:51 AM
RE: Sacrifice
(12-09-2013 10:20 AM)absols Wrote:  
(12-09-2013 08:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  Please teach us about " true existence rights ".

u r always eager of knowledge for the same evil reason which u r

true existence rights is nothing to know but all to admit the existence of what u know about

when u know smthg about a thing then that thing exist, and not ur knowlege to invent some fake existence from

the respect of what u know existing is the exclusive key to constant positive ends and freedom

that insistence to exploit what is known being by itself or alone is disgusting to an extreme edge that exhibit how far u cant ever b existing in anyways

Please rephrase that, it was incoherent.

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12-09-2013, 11:16 AM
RE: Sacrifice
(12-09-2013 10:20 AM)absols Wrote:  
(12-09-2013 08:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  Please teach us about " true existence rights ".

u r always eager of knowledge for the same evil reason which u r

true existence rights is nothing to know but all to admit the existence of what u know about

when u know smthg about a thing then that thing exist, and not ur knowlege to invent some fake existence from

the respect of what u know existing is the exclusive key to constant positive ends and freedom

that insistence to exploit what is known being by itself or alone is disgusting to an extreme edge that exhibit how far u cant ever b existing in anyways

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12-09-2013, 11:25 AM
RE: Sacrifice
n wat do u do moron, rephrase what n what for, truth are to b respected as being its fact not to say, how do u ask me to contradict my mean is the shit evil u r

respect me in my posts that clearly show u that these words cant b but of an existing personnal mind

then dont ask him anything to do for u shitty, respect and support its freedom to b fully for and through itself best true existence realisations needs

u prove that u cant ever b existing, so must b forced to never exist

u obviously cant respect the value of true existence

it is true it exists shut up
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12-09-2013, 11:26 AM
RE: Sacrifice
(12-09-2013 11:25 AM)absols Wrote:  n wat do u do moron, rephrase what n what for, truth are to b respected as being its fact not to say, how do u ask me to contradict my mean is the shit evil u r

respect me in my posts that clearly show u that these words cant b but of an existing personnal mind

then dont ask him anything to do for u shitty, respect and support its freedom to b fully for and through itself best true existence realisations needs

u prove that u cant ever b existing, so must b forced to never exist

u obviously cant respect the value of true existence

it is true it exists shut up

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12-09-2013, 06:29 PM
RE: Sacrifice
(12-09-2013 11:25 AM)absols Wrote:  n wat do u do moron, rephrase what n what for, truth are to b respected as being its fact not to say, how do u ask me to contradict my mean is the shit evil u r

respect me in my posts that clearly show u that these words cant b but of an existing personnal mind

then dont ask him anything to do for u shitty, respect and support its freedom to b fully for and through itself best true existence realisations needs

u prove that u cant ever b existing, so must b forced to never exist

u obviously cant respect the value of true existence

it is true it exists shut up

The completely niggardly gypsy is rapacious. An espadrille feels nagging remorse, or a amour-propre takes a peek at the

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Unlike so many somnambulists who have made their chic waif abhorrent to us, ribbons remain single-handledly placid.

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12-09-2013, 07:24 PM
RE: Sacrifice
(15-06-2011 11:24 AM)Kthulu Wrote:  Christians call Jesus's voluntary death a "sacrifice." As I see it, Christians can call what Jesus did whatever they'd like. However, it seems to me that what Jesus did was commit suicide with the knowledge that his death was temporary anyway.
That is one way to look at it and describe it. I think Jesus knew his death was temporary of course. In the accounts given he said so. That does not mean it is not a self sacrifice.
Quote:Given that death was final for Jesus, can it really be accurately labelled a "sacrifice"? Isn't a sacrifice a permanent thing? That is, something is given up with the expectation that it will never be returned in order that others may benefit
No. I don't see it that way. I think you are reaching. The cross was torture and humiliation. And he was treated brutally and he submitted to it without returning any hatred or desire for vengeance or any cry for justice. And he had done nothing wrong and was a man without sin. Hence he was the unblemished lamb sent by God.
Quote:. But that's not what is understood from Jesus's so-called sacrifice: his "bad weekend" (Julia Sweeney) resulted in his death, but he knew he'd be back and better-than-ever in a few days. So the ultimacy of what "sacrifice" implies has no muscle in the passion play.
That is your opinion. It was what it was. I don't see how not meeting your criteria for the term sacrifice takes anything away from it or adds to it. He certainly didn't enjoy the cross.

Quote:More, is there any reason why God couldn't have resorted to a more sophisticated method than human sacrifice to rid the world of sin? I mean, Yahweh condemned Moloch for the demand of human child sacrifice (Lev. 18:21) but then turns around and feels free to sacrifice his own child! Talk about brain-contortions: why couldn't the all-knowing, all-powerful deity, Yahweh, come up with a better system than the one he roundly condemned?
First off, you are conflating two different things. The intentions are opposites with Molech and the sacrifice of the Christ. Christ was a sacrifice for the sake of Love and forgiveness, not for personal gain. But it is even more complex than that. The question you should ask is how does one man's dying forgive anyone else's sins. You would have to understand why there is sin in the first place.

Secondly, Jesus had to die this way according to the requirements of the law so he could go into hell unblemished and make the law a travesty of justice. So that it could be seen in all of heaven that the self-righteous and powers of darkness who held the power of death could be seen in it's hypocrisy. In other words, the cross not only bought forgiveness but it destroyed workings of the one known as the devil.


Quote:Such oddities and blatant contradictions really drive home the point some atheists argue: that the Judeo-Christian God is a psychopath with blatantly capricious intentions, and cruel devices. More sophisticated lines of thought might question the veracity of the stories to begin with; i.e., that they were stories with grand embellishments written by people who didn't understand the events happening around them; so, the events in the stories are ascribed some kind of divine agency.
The way I see it , is that at the heart of the issue is the accusation of whether the Love that is God is Holy. Hence what I see is a love that endures great suffering and death and yet returns only forgiveness.

Quote:How do you tackle such obvious problems within scritpure? And what do such discrepancies do to your confidence in biblical inerrancy? Even more, how does such events reflect on God's moral character, in your opinion?
Personally, I understand your problems with scripture. It is a lot of imagery and metaphor. Imagine the riddle of how the Gospel makes the blind seeing and the seeing blind. The scriptures themselves claim that without the guidance of the Holy Spirit it cannot be understood. It is a veiled code.

Quote:Fine: Jesus was an adult. No dispute there. The point, however, is that everyone is someone's child, including Jesus being God's child. And if it is that God is outside of time, or timeless, or what have you, then the approximate age of a person has nothing to do with the equation: how old does a person have to be in light of eternity to not be considered a young, or infant child? Whatever category or title we want to place on temporal values really means nothing in light of eternity. Ergo, Jesus's sacrificial death may as well have been like that of an infant child sacrificed to Moloch. Compared to eternity, his age really makes no difference.
Please understand there are semantics in words. It is all about the intent and motive that makes any act good or evil.


Quote:And whether a religious sacrifice is voluntary or not, it is still a human sacrifice. Such measures are always reprehensible, and always have been. If a person's religious opponents practice human sacrifice, they are considered evil because they worship the wrong god. In cases where religious human sacrifice has not been practiced, onlookers are horrified to learn of others who do practice religious human sacrifice. But when it comes to Christians, suddenly there's an exception made; a special pleading, as it were. That is, Jesus's sacrifice was the one sacrifice to end all sacrifices -- except for the small fact that people still practiced religious human sacrifice long after Jesus was voluntarily killed.
Consider: According to scripture, at one time a man wanted to give something to God for no other reason than he desired to please Him. In those days, one's animals were like money. So he killed one of his animals that he otherwise would have eaten or perhaps traded and burned the carcass as an offering to God. God was pleased not because He desired an animal killed, but by the offering given in faith. It would be no different than say burning money. Later in the bible we see people sacrificing animals to try and win favor from God. God was not pleased at trying to be bought.

Quote:So, again, I question God's omnipotence: if Jesus's sacrifice was supposed to be sufficient to end the need for sacrifice, why couldn't God intervene in the lives of the human victims of the Mayan culture? Was he disinterested in spreading his once-for-all gospel too quickly? Was he otherwise busy dealing with the mid-East? Perhaps it is that the Judeo-Christian God may just be a localized cult that received a lot of press, and spread more successfully than any other religion or myth?
There are semantics in words.
When scripture talks about the sacrifice to end all sacrifices it is referring to the requirements of the Old Testament sacrifices according to the law. As you probably know, the temple was destroyed in 60 A.D. As a Christian however I am compelled to do the same as Christ and sacrifice myself for others.

Quote:I think these questions certainly need to be answered if there's to be any sensibility at all to the Christian claims of Jesus's divinity and soteriological utility.
Essentially, the faith is to not return evil for evil. That is how the devil is defeated in the world. As a Christian, to dwell in the Spirit of Christ is to each day carry my own cross in this life whatever form of burden that cross may take and forgive those who would crucify me on account of they know not what they do.
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12-09-2013, 07:41 PM
RE: Sacrifice
(12-09-2013 07:24 PM)childeye Wrote:  And he had done nothing wrong and was a man without sin.

Wrath?
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Pride?
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12-09-2013, 08:04 PM
RE: Sacrifice
absols,
Have you ever thought of, or do you have any plans to learn to use the English language ?

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12-09-2013, 08:40 PM
RE: Sacrifice
(12-09-2013 07:41 PM)I Am Wrote:  
(12-09-2013 07:24 PM)childeye Wrote:  And he had done nothing wrong and was a man without sin.

Wrath?
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Pride?
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I see some wrath but no pride in your two examples. I see a man who is disappointed that a tree will not bear any fruit and so he curses the tree. Have you never cursed anything when you were disappointed? That is not sin. The statement I am the bread of life was not a statement of pride. He was simply speaking in a parable about how he was sent to become spiritual food.
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12-09-2013, 10:48 PM
RE: Sacrifice
Does an infinite being even have the ability to sacrifice? A being that supposedly created the universe cannot possibly lose anything and has nothing more to gain, so is it even capable of sacrifice?

God's only son? Even assuming that an infinite being is capable of a meaningful sacrifice, does this concept even make sense for an infinite creator being? Couldn't god simply make another ad infinitum? How is Jesus god's 'only son' if he is also himself? If Jesus is god's son, are we not too? If you believe the literal story of genesis, then shouldn't we all be able to trace our lineages back to Adam and Eve, two other being purpose built by god? Was Adam not god's son? If not, what is the meaningful distinction between Jesus and Adam?

This is why theodicy is a giant pile of bullshit, because the only answers to these important questions that arise from the doctrine of Christianity can only be answered by more assumptions. It's nothing more than a big mental circle jerk that the 'followers of Christ' have been perpetuating for the last two thousand years...

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