Salvaging items from the Titanic.....is this grave robbing?
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20-04-2016, 02:11 PM
Salvaging items from the Titanic.....is this grave robbing?
Don't know where to post this. I've been watching Titanic stuff on the internet for the last two days. There is a company that is going down and taking stuff from the Titanic, personal things like jewelry and shoes and other items and bringing it up. I don't know if they're allowed to sell it but it's being put on display.

Some of the stuff is mundane.... but the shoes .....the shoes. When the people drowned and sank to the bottom with their shoes on their feet eventually their bones are eaten or are destroyed by the environment and nothing is left of them but their shoes.

Should this be considered grave robbing? I go back and forth on this. I think the jewelry should be given to the relatives if they could be found but some of the stuff is kinda creepy.

What do you guys think?

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Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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20-04-2016, 02:27 PM
RE: Salvaging items from the Titanic.....is this grave robbing?
As far as collecting the shoes and putting them on display goes I don't see it much different than the shoe memorial at the Holocaust Museum.

[Image: shoes.jpg]

Beyond that salvaging valuables from sunken ships has been going on legally for thousands of years. I don't see why the Titanic should be any different.

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20-04-2016, 03:42 PM
RE: Salvaging items from the Titanic.....is this grave robbing?
It's an archeological site. By all means, take away.

However take my opinion with a grain of salt. I have no issue with disturbing dead bodies. I don't have an issue with archeologists digging up graveyards. As long as the relatives of the deceased are fine with it I don't care. Bodies are legitimate archeological items. I'm still debating donation and cremation vs natural burial, but if I do leave a body I have no issue with it being dug up some time by an archeologist.
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20-04-2016, 03:43 PM
RE: Salvaging items from the Titanic.....is this grave robbing?
(20-04-2016 02:27 PM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  As far as collecting the shoes and putting them on display goes I don't see it much different than the shoe memorial at the Holocaust Museum.

[Image: shoes.jpg]

Beyond that salvaging valuables from sunken ships has been going on legally for thousands of years. I don't see why the Titanic should be any different.

I suppose. Yes, I thought about the Holocaust shoes but in that case the shoes represent the horrors that the Nazis imposed on the Jews and is a way to teach future generations a sort of "never again" moment. But if pulling up shoes from the Titanic is ok why don't we go dig up the graves of, I donno, JFK or Lincoln and pull off their shoes.

What I'm also curious about is... what is the length of time that something is considered an archaeological site? Is there, among archaeologists, some sort of arbitrary number of years that they give which separates grave robbing from being an archaeologist dig? Huh

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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20-04-2016, 03:54 PM
RE: Salvaging items from the Titanic.....is this grave robbing?
I think those guys are scum. They had a display which I went to see in Joburg. I don't know who grants them rights to the wreck or to take stuff away from it. They said they make the display "for a memorial to the people who died". I'm not so sure. They're a for profit company. Sure, they did some hectic salvage work to get the things, but... they're still scum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_Exhibitions

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20-04-2016, 03:57 PM
RE: Salvaging items from the Titanic.....is this grave robbing?
It depends. Are these people pirates stealing to sell on the black market. Or is it all legitimate?

A friend of mine is one of the worlds top divers. He was complaining to me recently that the wrecks of both the RN ships, Prince of Wales and Repulse, are slowly disappearing due to pirate activity.

He has been down to both several times and is really aggrieved. He's swam through them and spoken of the skeletons there and all. To see them torn apart and lost to us is heartbreaking.

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20-04-2016, 04:55 PM
RE: Salvaging items from the Titanic.....is this grave robbing?
To be completely logical about it --- it's really the scene of an accident............

....

It's not grave robbing.

A grave is where you put a dead body on purpose..........

....

.......................................

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20-04-2016, 05:15 PM (This post was last modified: 20-04-2016 05:22 PM by dancefortwo.)
RE: Salvaging items from the Titanic.....is this grave robbing?
(20-04-2016 03:57 PM)Banjo Wrote:  It depends. Are these people pirates stealing to sell on the black market. Or is it all legitimate?

A friend of mine is one of the worlds top divers. He was complaining to me recently that the wrecks of both the RN ships, Prince of Wales and Repulse, are slowly disappearing due to pirate activity.

He has been down to both several times and is really aggrieved. He's swam through them and spoken of the skeletons there and all. To see them torn apart and lost to us is heartbreaking.

From what I've read the Titanic is very slowly being picked apart and hauled up to the surface. There was a leather bag pulled up which had jewels in it. One small bracelet had the name "Amy" and could possible be traced to one of two passengers with that name. I think they should have made the effort to trace the relatives of this person and given it back but they didn't. Kinda sucks.

From an aesthetic point of view I think the Titanic looks grand under the ocean surrounded by the flowing rust and wondering fish. It's all haphazard and out of control, the way life on land is.......but you know what? .....I'm kinda weird.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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20-04-2016, 05:19 PM
RE: Salvaging items from the Titanic.....is this grave robbing?
It's called "salvage" on a wreck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipwreck

"Legal aspects[edit]

Main article: Law of salvage

Shipwreck law determines important legal questions regarding wrecks, perhaps the most important question being the question of ownership. Legally wrecks are divided into wreccum maris (material washed ashore after a shipwreck) and adventurae maris (material still at sea);[12] although some legal systems treat the two categories differently, others treat them the same.

Wrecks are often considered separately from their cargo. For example, in the English case of the Lusitania [1986] QB 384 it was accepted that the remains of the vessel itself were owned by the insurance underwriters who had paid out on the vessel as a total loss by virtue of the law of subrogation (who subsequently sold their rights), but that the property aboard the wreck still belonged to its original owners (or their descendants).

Military wrecks, however, remain under the jurisdiction–and hence protection–of the government that lost the ship, or that government's successor. Hence, a German U-boat from World War II still technically belongs to the German government, even though the Third Reich is long-defunct. Many military wrecks are also protected by virtue of their being war graves.

However, many legal systems allow the rights of salvors to override the rights of the original owners of a wreck or its cargo. As a general rule, non-historic civilian shipwrecks are considered fair game for salvage. Under international maritime law, for shipwrecks of a certain age, the original owner may have lost all claim to the cargo. Anyone who finds the wreck can then file a salvage claim on it and place a lien on the vessel, and subsequently mount a salvage operation (see Finders, keepers).[13] The State of North Carolina questionably claims "all photographs, video recordings, or other documentary materials of a derelict vessel or shipwreck or its contents, relics, artifacts, or historic materials in the custody of any agency of North Carolina government or its subdivisions" to be its property.[14]

Some countries assert claims to all wrecks within their territorial waters, irrespective of the interest of the original owner or the salvor.[15] Wartime wrecks have different legal considerations, as they are often considered prizes of war, and therefore owned by the Navy that sank them.

MSC Napoli beached off Branscombe
Some legal systems regard a wreck (and/or its cargo) to be abandoned if no attempt is made to salvage them within a certain period of time. English law has usually resisted this notion (encouraged by an extremely large maritime insurance industry, which asserts claims in respect of shipwrecks which it has paid claims on), but it has been accepted to a greater or lesser degree in an Australian case[16] and in a Norwegian case.[17]

The American courts have been inconsistent between states and at Federal level.[18] Under Danish law, all shipwrecks over 150 years old belong to the state if no owner can be found. In Spain, wrecks vest in the state if not salvaged within 3 years. In Finland, all property on board shipwrecks over 100 years old vests in the state.

The British Protection of Wrecks Act, enacted to protect historic wrecks, controls access to wrecks such as Cattewater Wreck which can only be visited or investigated under licence. The British Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 also restricts access to wrecks which are sensitive as war graves. The Protection of Military Remains Act in some cases creates a blanket ban on all diving; for other wrecks divers may visit provided they do not touch, interfere with or penetrate the wreck. In the United States, shipwrecks in state waters are regulated by the Abandoned Shipwrecks Act of 1987. This act is much more lenient in allowing more open access to the shipwrecks.

Following the beaching of the MSC Napoli, as a result of severe damage incurred during European storm Kyrill, there was confusion in the press and by the authorities about whether people could be prevented from helping themselves to the flotsam which was washed up on the beaches at Branscombe. Many people took advantage of the confusion and helped themselves to the cargo. This included many BMW motorbikes and empty wine casks as well as bags of disposable nappies (diapers).[19] The legal position under the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 is that any such finds and recovery must be reported within 28 days to the Receiver of Wreck.[20] Failure to do so is an offence under the Merchant Shipping Act and can result in a criminal record for theft by finding.[21] After several days, the police and Receiver of Wreck, in conjunction with the landowner and the contracted salvors, established a cordon to prevent access to the beach.[22] A similar situation occurred after the wreck of the MV Cita in 1997.

Historic wrecks (often but not always defined as being more than 50 years of age) are often protected from pillaging and looting through national laws protecting cultural heritage.[23] Internationally they may be protected by a State ratifying the Unesco Convention on the Protection of the Underwater Cultural Heritage. In this case pillaging is not allowed. One such example is the Queen Anne's Revenge[24] which is undergoing archaeological recovery by the North Carolina Department of Cultural Resources near Beaufort Inlet, NC. The infamous pirate Blackbeard's flagship[25] was discovered by Intersal, Inc., a private research firm, in 1996.[26]

An important international convention aiming at the protection of underwater cultural heritage (including shipwrecks) is the Convention on the Protection of the Underwater Cultural Heritage.[27] The 2001 UNESCO Convention on the Protection of the Underwater Cultural Heritage represents the international community's response to the increasing looting and destruction of underwater cultural heritage. It forms part of a group of UNESCO standard setting instruments regarding the domain of cultural heritage, encompassing seven conventions adopted by UNESCO Member States, which constitute a coherent and complementary body guaranteeing a complete protection of all forms of cultural heritage.

The UNESCO 2001 Convention is an international treaty aimed exclusively at the protection of underwater cultural heritage and the facilitation of international cooperation in this regard. It does not change sovereignty rights of States or regulate the ownership of wrecks or submerged ruins."

**********************************************
Personally, I don't have a problem with them bringing up the stuff but if there are 3rd generation or less relatives living, they should get these personal things or if they have a significant value, (thousands of dollars worth of jewelry or whatever). Otherwise they should be museum pieces. I dislike the idea of them going out on the collectors market, gruesome to me, but I imagine that's what the law allows.

This is a fascinating museum and I've been many times when I lived in KC. It was dug up/salvaged a couple miles from my home. I watched the excavation for months and would've hated to have missed this experience.

The Arabia Steamboat

http://1856.com/

So all in all I have mixed feelings about it.

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20-04-2016, 05:24 PM
RE: Salvaging items from the Titanic.....is this grave robbing?
[Image: when-you-visit-home-and-see-your-parents...;amp;h=182]

Well there is a cut off and this is done mainly by people seeking profit as often as these endeavors are. It's interestingly how a contrast of a 100 year event may be viewed differently than 3000 year old searching and findings. They take pottery or clothes & jewelry left behind that were peoples belongings. It's a matter of what you intend to do with them I suppose.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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