Salvation vs. actions
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31-01-2013, 01:45 PM
RE: Salvation vs. actions
I agree with Impulse, but I figure I gotta rebut so we can find out if Richard wants to converse meaningfully.

As for me, I find that particular belief repugnant. I'm an atheist. I have no god watching over me, guiding my actions or threatening me with punishment if I act badly. My only reward is here in this world and my only punishment will be carried out in this world by my peers if my actions warrant it.

Despite that, I try to live my life such that everyone I meet, friends, coworkers, neighbors, clerks at stores, whoever, even if that meeting is brief and I'll never see that person again, my goal is to make sure I comport myself in such a way that they feel like their life, their day, or even just their moment, was better for having shared it with me. Often, that usually just means being polite and maybe saying something witty to put a smile on a stranger's face - mission accomplished. For people I have actual relationships with, it means much more than that.

Back to your beliefs and the repugnance thereof. You believe you can be an ass to anyone at any time and you have no consequences for it. In person, the behavior you exemplified here on this forum would get you punched in the nose. You know it would. You rely on your anonymity through the computer to protect you - the worst we can do is join you in name calling so you're safe.

The worst part is that you actually think you're superior to other people all the while you have this free license to be an ass and still be rewarded despite the repugnance of your behavior. That's sick, twisted, and revolting. Behavior like yours should be punished. You should be made to stop (i.e. punched in the nose), or at least highly encouraged to stop (i.e. not getting punched in the nose when you behave sociably).

You've chosen an imaginary friend in the sky who gives you an eternity of blissful reward for the most lame reason ever - gullibility. All you have to do is believe in a mythological character who never existed, all because an ancient book says so, without a shred of real evidence, and despite a ton of real contradictory evidence. In other words, you get eternal reward for being easily gullible. And along with that reward comes your free pass to treat your fellow man with abominable disregard.

I almost hope, almost, that there is a perfect, benevolent, creator god who put us all here for a reason and who judges us perfectly and rewards or punishes us accordingly. No, I don't mean your psychopathic idiot god, Yahweh, but an actual wise, loving creator god. For surely if there were such a god, your behavior (at least here; it's all I know about you) would not be rewarded. Not in the slightest. In fact, quite the opposite; your behavior would be punished.

But I said "almost" because I don't really hope that. At least not the punishment part. Nobody deserves eternal torture for temporary bad behavior. But, that's not what you believe - you believe people like me deserve to burn in hell just because I'm not as gullible as you. For committing no crime, for behaving with no malice, for doing nothing wrong but using the brain god gave me, I must burn and you're OK with that. I'm not. Not for me, not for you, not for anyone. Which is why I really don't wish for a god to punish you, at least not with a punishment such as hell.

But it would be cool if my suggested version of a loving god would take you and me to heaven and put you in timeout, say, for a few thousand years, to think about what an ass you've been and to reflect on why that's bad.

TL;dr: Bad Richard, very bad.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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31-01-2013, 01:46 PM
RE: Salvation vs. actions
Do they always just assume we have never heard this stuff before?

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31-01-2013, 02:09 PM
RE: Salvation vs. actions
(31-01-2013 01:46 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Do they always just assume we have never heard this stuff before?
I think so, for some. The rest assume we're ignoring it because we reject god and don't want to hear their divinely inspired wisdom, but maybe if they say it one more time, maybe this time it will be different and we'll finally hear what they've been saying all along.

Either way, they're wrong. (I say that for their benefit, not yours; you already know they're wrong)

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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31-01-2013, 02:10 PM
RE: Salvation vs. actions
THEY'RE WRONG???!!!! I was just doing this to piss off god Wink

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31-01-2013, 02:15 PM
RE: Salvation vs. actions
"Salvation" was one of the best marketing scheme's of all time cooked up by Saul of Tarsus. Of course Jebus never said a word about it, and the Hebrews didn't believe in eternal life anyway (except for a very few, and not in a physical way), so it's all a moot question anyway. Then Augustine cooked up "original sin" to support that, and they were off to the races. It's was all BS, to market the new Jebus cult. Sorry. History disproves the whole ball of crap.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ic+origins

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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31-01-2013, 02:21 PM
RE: Salvation vs. actions
I think this guy just wants to carry a cross around and moan. I don't think he is looking for intelligent debate.
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31-01-2013, 03:12 PM
RE: Salvation vs. actions
Ah Jesus the sinless wonder.

Except he committed a few sins in the Bible.

Shame really.

Interesting how "murder" becomes "manslaughter" in your mind if committed by a Born Again. It's only manslaughter if the death was an accident - are you saying the Holy Spirit takes control of the Born Agains body and murders people with it in every one of these cases?

Anyway, a god who allows people into paradise no matter what they do as long as they accept their free all access pass by sacrificing their critical thinking abilities is not a god I am interested in knowing.
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31-01-2013, 03:19 PM
RE: Salvation vs. actions
He did include the caveat that it's what he believes, so fair enough. Here's what I believe:

It's immoral and irresponsible to put an imaginary god's will before that of humankind's.

If your number one priority is to believe in Jesus for salvation, then everything else becomes irrelevant. Murder, adultery, violence, and theft are simply manifestations of our flawed selves... forgivable mistakes. I'm personally unnerved by people that believe they'll be rewarded regardless of their actions on Earth, simply because of what they think. 'Belief' sounds like something that would be valuable to a human trying to spread their religion meme, not a god.

I read enough world news to know what 'true believers' are capable of.

...it would rather be a man... [who] plunges into scientific questions with which he has no real acquaintance, only to obscure them with aimless rhetoric, and distract the attention of his hearers from the real point at issue by eloquent digressions and skilled appeals to religious prejudice.
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31-01-2013, 03:23 PM
RE: Salvation vs. actions
Unfortunately, the idea of "salvation" and "perfection [of us]" has some glaring faults.

Salvation: What are you being "saved" from? A maniacal being who will cast you into hell if you don't give your 100% worship to it in some bent sort of "love" relationship. It is the "gun to the head" religion. "Love me, and continue to love me or I pull the trigger". So, you are "saved" from the actions of the very being who will cause your eternal torment.

What about "the cross"? Any deity who was intelligent enough to create everything to operate within very specific bounds [laws of physics, chemistry, relational, etc], . . . couldn't come up with a better plan than, "you do something "wrong", something has to die bloody!"? A NEEDLESS action when the grown up thing to do would be to merely "forgive". Or, . . . for so many of the "sins", . . . to not be so uptight about them in the first place!

"Perfection": Why hold humans [which were purposefully created TO be flawed in the first place] to "perfection". . . . . . when the god that requires it . . . ISN'T even perfect itself?

***Disclaimer - The above is "for argument sake that the christian god exists".***
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31-01-2013, 04:28 PM
RE: Salvation vs. actions
(31-01-2013 12:52 AM)panterasr9 Wrote:  So lets say your building a house right? Would you rather have two hands working or a thousand hands praying? I bet my house with my one worker gets it done faster. Do you see what that means?
I'd rather have a thousand hands preying personally. We cant prove it either way cuz it's a hypothetical. That's why neither I nor most intelligent people dont answer hypotheticals.
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