Salvation vs. actions

[fstratzero]

(31-01-2013 09:37 PM)pxlgirl Wrote:  

(31-01-2013 08:58 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  But then again you have the fast food version of theology. Where all you have to do is believe that jesus died for you.
(...)

He died FOR us? Well, as far as I remember, he got tortured and killed, I doubt that he enjoyed himself hanging on a cross. Assuming he then woke up from the dead, he should be very pissed and horse-fuck those who did this to him, plus everyone else gloating over his suffering (which technically would be... all christians?).

I'm an atheist.

Later on in life I realized how sick it would be for a father to kill his son, for the crimes of his fellows. Rather than give a proportional punishment for those who committed said crimes.

[pxlgirl]

Yeah, but I was just checkin' if I got this right... The fact that he got killed but then people claiming he died for "us" didn't really match so... and yeah, with a father like god, you don't even need to make up satan.

[fstratzero]

(31-01-2013 09:57 PM)pxlgirl Wrote:  Yeah, but I was just checkin' if I got this right... The fact that he got killed but then people claiming he died for "us" didn't really match so... and yeah, with a father like god, you don't even need to make up satan.

Indeed, even the concept of god is an idea that is an ocean of contradictions. A concept at war with it's self.

[EvolutionKills]

I never liked the idea of vicarious redemption, it just seems immoral. I could pay your debt, take your place in prison, or even your spot on the gallows. However I CANNOT absolve you of your responsibility; it would be immoral of you ask, and immoral of me to accept.


Christianity is a cult of human sacrifice, it operate under the assumption that a single human sacrifice was actually effective. But even this falls amazingly short of being impressive. Jesus just did what had been preordained for him, so what choice did he have? It was all part of God's plan, so it's not as if he choose to go through with it (which means his 'sacrifice' was inevitable, and thus meaningless). And even if he had actively chosen, so what? He died and spent a whooping 3 days in hell before going back up to heaven. Some fucking sacrifice.


If traditional Christology held that Jesus was still in hell and taking our places there so that we need not suffer, that would at least be somewhat more compelling. But then again that would negate the threat of hell, leaving the faithful with just a carrot and no stick. But it doesn't matter because supposedly he's already in heaven chilling next to... himself. That's right folks, because the only way God can fix the Universe is with a blood sacrifice, and the regular ones weren't cutting it anymore, so he had to kill himself to get the job done. Makes perfect sense...

[Starcrash]

(31-01-2013 12:48 AM)Richard Stuckmeyer Wrote:  ACCORDING TO MY BELIEF, salvation is based on ONE thing, faith in Jesus Christ as your Saviour.

Do you really believe this? I thought I did when I was a Christian, but looking back I see that I didn't. Do you see the Mormons as Christians? Jehovah's Witnesses? Both Catholics and Protestants? They all believe in Jesus Christ, but their specific rituals are what make them different -- and I believe you also see most of those as non-believers, despite sharing faith in Jesus Christ as savior.

(31-01-2013 12:48 AM)Richard Stuckmeyer Wrote:  Now, there you have my thread, let the flaming, trolling, insulting, etc. begin.

Save the stereotypes and ad hominem. Christians are just as good at flaming, trolling, and insulting as atheists are. Your religion doesn't dictate your level of altruism or ethics, despite whatever you've been told in church.

[Aseptic Skeptic]

(31-01-2013 09:48 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Later on in life I realized how sick it would be for a father to kill his son, for the crimes of his fellows. Rather than give a proportional punishment for those who committed said crimes.

No, it makes perfect sense.

The other day someone broke into my car and stole my CDs and iPod charger. I didn't want to stay mad at this burglar and there was no way I could just forgive him, so I nailed my daughter to a cross. All is forgiven.

It worked for Yahweh, and it worked for me.

[devilsadvoc8]

(01-02-2013 01:33 AM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  

(31-01-2013 09:48 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Later on in life I realized how sick it would be for a father to kill his son, for the crimes of his fellows. Rather than give a proportional punishment for those who committed said crimes.

No, it makes perfect sense.

The other day someone broke into my car and stole my CDs and iPod charger. I didn't want to stay mad at this burglar and there was no way I could just forgive him, so I nailed my daughter to a cross. All is forgiven.

It worked for Yahweh, and it worked for me.

And the next time an angry mob is outside my house, just send the daughter out to be raped by them. Its all good from there.

[DeavonReye]

It really makes me wonder [considering the excellent posts in this thread] how christians can't understand the folly of "a sacrifice" themselves. And the whole thing about "perfection", . . . . and the worn out statement "We are lucky for god's grace, because we all DESERVE to burn in hell for eternity for our sin". God wasn't "perfect", why should we be held to what this god wasn't able to do?

[hedgehog648]

(31-01-2013 08:19 PM)Richard Stuckmeyer Wrote:  

(31-01-2013 07:41 PM)hedgehog648 Wrote:  [/font]

The Sins of Jesus Christ:

According to the many laws of God, becoming "unclean" was a sin. See Leviticus 5:2-3 - "Or if a person touches any unclean thing, he also shall be unclean and guilty. Or if he touches human uncleanness - whatever uncleanness with which a man may be defiled, and he is unaware of it - when he realises it, then he shall be guilty." Then Leviticus 5:5-6 - "And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing: And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the Lord for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin."


Now see Leviticus 13:3 - "And the priest shall look on the plague in the skin of the flesh: and when the hair in the plague is turned white, and the plague in sight be deeper than the skin of his flesh, it is a plague of leprosy: and the priest shall look on him, and pronounce him unclean." Also Leviticus 13:8 - "And if the priest see that, behold, the scab spreadeth in the skin, then the priest shall pronounce him unclean: it is a leprosy." Later, Leviticus 13:45 - "And the leper in whom the plague is, his clothes shall be rent, and his head bare, and he shall put a covering upon his upper lip, and shall cry, Unclean, unclean."


So it should be pretty clear that leprosy is considered to be unclean, yes? A Jew like Jesus would be bound to this law, as in the New Testament Jesus says that he has come not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. So if Jesus were to touch a person with leprosy, he would become unclean, and would have committed a sin.

Sin 1) Matthew 8:2-3 - "And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed."

When Jesus touched the man, the man did not become clean until after Jesus had spoken. Therefore Jesus became unclean by touching a leper.

So now we move to Numbers 19:11 - "He that toucheth the dead body of any man shall be unclean seven days." And Numbers 19:14 - "This is the law, when a man dieth in a tent: all that come into the tent, and all that is in the tent, shall be unclean seven days."

Now before we move on to Sin 2, note this phrasing from the book of John:John 11:11-13 "These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep."

[font=Times New Roman]Also in several of Paul's letters, he uses the phrase of being asleep to denote death. So now we move to the gospel of Mark:


Sin 2) Mark 5:35-41 - "While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's house certain which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further? As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe. And he suffered no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James. And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly. And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. But when he had put them all out, he taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying. And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise." Bear in mind, if the girl was merely asleep then why would this be considered a miracle? Further Luke confirms the girl was dead. Luke 8:54-55 - "And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat."

Jesus was once again unclean, and hence a sinner. You asked for one, I gave you two - do you need any more?

Fair enough on the manslaughter point, I was referring only to Involuntary manslaughter - were you thinking of Voluntary manslaughter?

I have encountered many people over the years who have quoted this passage in
the Scriptures as if it ends all arguments with respect to their theology. I
have yet to find anyone who will sincerely consider this question. Instead, I
have found that people would prefer to leave this as an open ended esoteric
conclusion. What He meant was very important though, and we should seriously
consider the context and His intent in making this statement.
Jesus was speaking to the people during what we consider to be the Sermon
on the Mount. The primary message that Jesus was communicating was very well
described in Matthew 5:48 when He concluded with the statement, “Therefore you
shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.” He was teaching the
law, and teaching it to the fullest of what it demanded. The law demanded
perfection, and Jesus was certainly encouraging people to pursue perfection. The
Pharisees had been teaching that their additional laws were providing them with
a fence around the Law of Moses. They sincerely believed that they could
construct a hedge of protection around themselves by living according to a
specific lifestyle, based on laws governing every aspect of their life. Jesus
told the people that their righteousness had to exceed that of the Scribes and
Pharisees if they were going to have any hope of entering into the Kingdom of
Heaven. He then went on to present additional laws they were to live by that
were well beyond what the Scribes and Pharisees required.
Jesus taught the Law, because the New Covenant did not go into effect
until after He died and rose from the dead. Jesus was not telling us that we
should not live in obedience to the Law. He taught that if we did not live in
total obedience to the law, to the extent that we obeyed well beyond those who
devoted every aspect of their lives to obedience to the Law, we would not
possibly enter the Kingdom of Heaven. He did take several opportunities to
proclaim the New Covenant, but He did not really teach it like He taught the
Old. When the New Covenant went into effect, the Old Covenant did not cease to
be in effect. This is a very important point to understand. The New Covenant did
not replace what we understand to be the Old Covenant, the Law of Moses. Some
people believe that the New Covenant is a renewed Old Covenant. I sincerely
believe that Jeremiah made it clear that the New Covenant was not going to be
like the Old Covenant at all (Jer. 31:31-34). The New Covenant addressed issues
that were never addressed in the Old Covenant. They were both presented for two
completely different purposes. That is why I can say they are able to co-exist
together simultaneously. The Old Covenant addressed the concerns of the flesh
and the new Covenant addressed the concerns of the spirit. The concerns of the
spirit were addressed in the New Covenant through the resurrection of the
Messiah, and the presentation of salvation and eternal life to all who would
receive the free gift.
The primary purpose of the Old Covenant was to lead us to Christ. This
was very well described in Paul’s letter to the Galatians 3:24,25. The Law shows
us our inability to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. When we are
willing to acknowledge this fundamental truth, we will recognize that the only
way we will possibly enter the Kingdom of Heaven is by the mercy and grace of
our God. This is one of the ways it is still in effect to this day and has not
been destroyed. The Law is still being used to show people their depravity and
lead them to Christ. If a person is consumed with their own pride and self
righteousness, we should teach them the Law and encourage them more and more to
live in obedience to the Law. The hope is that one day they will come to terms
with their inability to be obedient, and also recognize that the law does
nothing to change their heart or transform who they are. There is nothing wrong
with the Law as it was revealed through the Old Covenant. It reveals that there
is something wrong with us. Paul described this very well when he wrote 1
Timothy 1:7,8 saying that some were desiring to be teachers of the law but they
understood nothing. He said that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, that
is for its intended purpose. Otherwise, they are misusing what our God gave us.
Teaching believers in the Lord Jesus who have been born again of the
Spirit of God that they are to govern their lives by the Mosaic law, or any
other law, is misusing the law for a purpose other than what it was given for.
Our lives are to be governed by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God who
will lead us and guide us in all truth (John 14:17 and 16:13). He died for all
of our sins and no longer holds our sins against us (2 Corinthians 5:18-19). If
He no longer holds our sins against us, He will never punish us for our sins. If
there is no punishment, there is no law (Romans 5:13). This is why our God now
completely, fully and unconditionally loves and accepts us. If we are totally
loved and accepted by our God, we are to live in response to that truth. We are
now to engage our life and the world around us with what we have in our
relationship with Him, not with what we hope to obtain in the world, fulfillment
for our deepest desires for perfect love and acceptance. We are to live our
lives with what we have, not live our lives with hope we will obtain what our
God has already given by what we hope to obey but never will.
There are many people today who are trying to use the Law for purposes
that the Law was never given for. There was no law given that suggested you
would grow in your relationship with God through your obedience. There was no
law given that hinted at the notion that you would know your God if you were
obedient. These are assumptions that many people are making about the law that
have no basis at all in the Scriptures. The most a person could hope for through
their pursuit of the Law was what was promised by the Law. The promises were
that a person would have plenty of flour in their kneading bowl (Deuteronomy
28:5). Mildew would not overtake them (Deuteronomy 28:22). They would lend and
not borrow (Deuteronomy 28:12). All of the blessings promised through a person’s
pursuit of the law were oriented towards the flesh. The condition that was given
to obtain these blessings was to obey all of the commandments. This requirement
is normally overlooked and people assume that it means their reasonable effort.
To obtain the full benefit of the law, you must obey the entirety of the law
(Deuteronomy 28:15), and the maximum benefit God promised was benefits for your
flesh.
The Law expressed two demands. The first demand was total obedience and
the second was death, in the event the first demand was not met. We have a
sinful nature and will never live in total obedience to the Law as it was
presented through Moses. Therefore, if we subject ourselves under the law, with
hope that God will also endorse our subjecting ourselves under the law (for it
was only given to the nation of Israel before the Messiah), there will only be
one possible result. The only possible result is that we will fail to obey all
of the commandments and will therefore be under the curses that were described
right after the blessings in Deuteronomy 28. This was expressed well in
Galatians 3:10, that if you are under the law, you are definitely under a curse,
because you will never be obedient enough to be under the blessings.
Jesus fulfilled both demands of the Law. The first demand He fulfilled by
living a life in total absolute obedience to the Law. He was God manifested in
the flesh, who came to live as a man, and He lived perfectly because there was
no sin within Him. In this context Jesus fulfilled the law, by living in
obedience to its demands. The Lord Jesus also fulfilled the second demand of the
Law by dying for our sins. The law demanded death for anyone who did not live in
obedience to it, and He died on behalf of everyone who failed to obey the law.
In this context the Lord Jesus also fulfilled the law. When Jesus said that He
came to fulfill, uphold and establish the law, He did so by teaching it, living
in accordance with its demands, and dying on behalf of all those who failed
through their sin.
In addition to fulfilling the demands of the Law, there is a third way
that Jesus fulfilled the law that should not be overlooked. The Law had several
prophetic inferences embedded within it that revealed a foreshadowing of what
the Lord Jesus would do. This was described in Colosians 2:16,17 when Paul spoke
of the law as a shadow of things that have now been revealed in the reality of
Christ Jesus. The Sabbath law for example was a law that required us to rest in
our flesh, and the reality that has now been revealed is that we are to rest in
our spirits, in our hearts from working to obtain or sustain our right standing
with our God. This was described in Hebrews chapter 3 and 4. The Day of
Atonement was a foreshadowing of what the Lord Jesus would accomplish for us
once for all in the true Tabernacle in Heaven, described in Hebrews 9:8-12. The
Law was given by God to Israel to establish the cultural and religious
infrastructure for Jesus to accomplish salvation for humanity in the way that He
did.
Another example of how Jesus fulfilled the law was through the
foreshadowing of the law of Passover. For example, Jesus was identified as a
Passover lamb in 1 Corinthians 5:7. The Passover lamb was selected on the 10th
day of the first month and it was observed until the 14th day of the month to
ensure the lamb was healthy and had no blemish. On the 14th day of the month the
lamb was sacrificed. The Lord Jesus entered Jerusalem on the 10th day of the
first month and the people identified Him as their Messiah. He was available to
be questioned and observed until the 14th day of the month, which was when He
was sacrificed for our sins. This is the reality that we now see and understand
that was prophetically foreshadowed in the law of Passover.
When Jesus said that He did not come to destroy the Law and that it would
not pass away until all things were fulfilled, He asserted that the Law was
going to remain in effect for the purpose of showing people their need for
salvation. Jesus said that He came to fulfill the Law, and He did so by living a
life in total obedience to the Law, and by dying for us who did not live in
total obedience to the Law. In addition to fulfilling the demands of the Law,
Jesus fulfilled the prophetic foreshadowings and inferences that were presented
in the Law. The Law is still in effect and should be used for its intended
purpose. Using it for purposes other than its intended purpose is to distort the
intent of the Law and deceive people from the truth of the New Covenant.

The point of me bringing up the Law was so that it was plainly understood that Jesus was subject to it just like any other Jew. Essentially your entire post was confirming this further. But in your post you said this:


"Jesus fulfilled both demands of the Law. The first demand He fulfilled by living a life in total absolute obedience to the Law. He was God manifested in
the flesh, who came to live as a man, and He lived perfectly because there was
no sin within Him. In this context Jesus fulfilled the law, by living in
obedience to its demands."


and then this:


" Jesus said that He came to fulfill the Law, and He did so by living a life in total obedience to the Law, and by dying for us who did not live in
total obedience to the Law."


However I gave you two examples of how Jesus did not obey the Law. Two times when he broke it by becoming "unclean" and hence a sinner. As a result, his sacrifice meant nothing. He was not sinless, and could not be the "lamb of God" as he was called.


The whole point of his sacrifice, as you alluded to in your post, was that he was the sinless sacrifice for all of humanity. But since he was a sinner, his death could not result in salvation for anyone. He was just another sinning Jew dying in the Middle East.

[Kaloste]

Only followers of Jesus are saved? Everyone else burns in hell, right? Does this include children who are too young to understand the concept of religion, aborted babies, members of other faiths who have never been exposed to Christianity, and of course the most of us, who you joined simply in order to tell is we are going to hell for using the mind that you believe god gave us?

If there's a god and he's really not as malevolent as he comes off to be, then he would realize that he gave us not only the power to think outside of the bible box, but also set proof against his own existence. Humans aren't the center of the universe just because they're conscious beings. Consciousness is merely a chemical reaction in our brains.

However, I am glad that you didn't use "we believe" like most Christians. You used "I believe". Thank you for that.