Sam Harris: Islam or Islamaphobia
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01-11-2013, 08:35 PM
RE: Sam Harris: Islam or Islamaphobia
(01-11-2013 08:00 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  
(01-11-2013 07:30 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  Define many?

I think there's the exact amount there should be.

1. Factoring in the mentally ill.
2. Factoring in the people influenced by the amount of wealth and power of Saudi Arabia and the US financing and spreading of extremism for their own ends.
3. Factoring in the anger of the those bombed, or invaded, or occupied in a region.
4. Factoring in the anger of those that relate to those mentioned in #3.
5. Factoring in the casual and overt prejudice, and having no where to turn.

There's the exact number of radicals as there should be. These factors applied to any other religion, ideology, or people would result in the exact same outcomes.

A billion well to do people, with a severe minority of mentally ill, or angry people that lash out, that reach out and hold onto anything they can to justify it.

If people really want to prevent these types of angry and ill people, ask WHY. Because even if these people targeted were atheistic, there would be some other belief or ideology. And demonizing "Islam", and leaving it at that, is just stupid and does more harm than good.
I see what your saying, people have many different reasons to become radicalized and no group is immune. I wouldn't blame Islam as a whole.

Is there an 'Islam as a whole'? Probably not.

There are passages in the Quran and messages from clerics that are ugly.
There are people who take these ugly things to heart and act on them.

The same is true of Christianity and Judaism.

Religions can have ugly effects and consequences.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-11-2013, 09:18 PM
RE: Sam Harris: Islam or Islamaphobia
(01-11-2013 08:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-11-2013 08:00 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  I see what your saying, people have many different reasons to become radicalized and no group is immune. I wouldn't blame Islam as a whole.

Is there an 'Islam as a whole'? Probably not.

There are passages in the Quran and messages from clerics that are ugly.
There are people who take these ugly things to heart and act on them.

The same is true of Christianity and Judaism.

Religions can have ugly effects and consequences.
They act on them whether they fit definitions of radicalism or not, people who march to silence the critics of islam and to pass legislation to prevent this, what of those? Do they sound radical? There is something dangerous of an idea that can not be criticised and people willing to shed blood on those who do.

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02-11-2013, 05:52 AM
RE: Sam Harris: Islam or Islamaphobia
poolboy, did you watch the linked video and read the released statement? If you had, you would have understood that its intent was to prove that the subjugation of women and certain capital punishment (e.g. stoning) is accepted by the majority of the muslim population not just the radicals.

two observations from the video- not one woman present (at least they practice what they preach) and how uncomfortable was the one man in the front row who didn't raise his hand to respond affirmatively at the questions.
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02-11-2013, 06:13 AM
RE: Sam Harris: Islam or Islamaphobia
I completely agree that we have a tendency to fear monger about Islam. On the one hand - we understand the psychological phenomena known as extremism. On the other hand - we do not see Christianity as having this much threat because Christians are no longer stoning eachother as punishment.

However, playing devil's advocate for a moment, the reason something makes the news (kidnapping of Elizabeth smart or the attempted assassination of Malala by the Taliban), is because it's not the norm. Generally speaking. So we are judging based on the rare occurrence as if it is representative of the culture on the whole

Is it also possible that the media has its own agenda? The media goes with whatever story will get the most ratings. Many of you might not know - but around the time of Casey Anthony - there was also a black girl that went missing in FL. The media wasn't interested.

I haven't formed an opinion about Islam. I try not to listen to the media but to direct accounts of those who lived it. To ask my Muslim friends questions. I was just putting some conversation fodder out there

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02-11-2013, 06:32 AM
RE: Sam Harris: Islam or Islamaphobia
Islam is a fucking joke religion.
I think there is little I respect less than a Muslim in this world.

It's a religion that deserves to be called out on it's stupidity and violence and it has absolutely no place in a modern society.
In fact I would so far as to say I think Europe should be doing more as to slow Islamic immigration. There needs to be more pressure politically on Muslims and Muslim countries by the West to get them to sort their shit out.

Oh and have a picture of Muhammad.

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02-11-2013, 07:08 AM
RE: Sam Harris: Islam or Islamaphobia
I respect individuals, not organizations, countries, or religions.

Islam, from what I've read and seen, scares me. Not all practitioners of Islam scare me, but the religion as a whole does. So does Catholicism and super conservative Orthodox Judaism.

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02-11-2013, 07:47 AM
RE: Sam Harris: Islam or Islamaphobia
(01-11-2013 09:18 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  
(01-11-2013 08:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  Is there an 'Islam as a whole'? Probably not.

There are passages in the Quran and messages from clerics that are ugly.
There are people who take these ugly things to heart and act on them.

The same is true of Christianity and Judaism.

Religions can have ugly effects and consequences.
They act on them whether they fit definitions of radicalism or not, people who march to silence the critics of islam and to pass legislation to prevent this, what of those? Do they sound radical? There is something dangerous of an idea that can not be criticised and people willing to shed blood on those who do.

Those who wish to silence criticism are radical. They are anti-freedom, anti-human rights.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-11-2013, 07:47 AM
RE: Sam Harris: Islam or Islamaphobia
(02-11-2013 06:32 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Islam is a fucking joke religion.
I think there is little I respect less than a Muslim in this world.

It's a religion that deserves to be called out on it's stupidity and violence and it has absolutely no place in a modern society.
In fact I would so far as to say I think Europe should be doing more as to slow Islamic immigration. There needs to be more pressure politically on Muslims and Muslim countries by the West to get them to sort their shit out.

Oh and have a picture of Muhammad.

[Image: 6a00d8341c60bf53ef0120a802240f970b-350wi]

All religions are a joke.

But I do not disrespect muslims. There is such a great variation among them.
Some muslims are radical, and some muslim countries are extreme. But you cannot
throw them all one in one pile, just like you cannot throw all the atheists in one
pile with Stalin and Mao.

Actually, what scares me more than Muslim terrorists are domestic terrorists.
Since 9/11, some right-extreme parties have gained more power. In other words,
the fear of Muslim terrorism, is much more dangerous than the terrorism itself.

For example, in the USA, 3000 people died on 9/11 because of Muslim terrorists.
But in the "war on terror" that followed, more Americans have died in
Iraq, Afghanistan etc.

The extreme right and Muslim radicals agree: we must have a war between
Muslim and Christian culture. You are either in one camp or the other.
Antagonizing moderate Muslims is exactly playing into the hands of the extremists.
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02-11-2013, 07:51 AM
RE: Sam Harris: Islam or Islamaphobia
When you have hate at the radical or extreme end of an ideology, is it possible that this hate comes from outside/misinterpretation of said ideology or it comes from the core of that ideology?

That's the most important question for me.

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02-11-2013, 08:06 AM
RE: Sam Harris: Islam or Islamaphobia
(02-11-2013 07:51 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  When you have hate at the radical or extreme end of an ideology, is it possible that this hate comes from outside/misinterpretation of said ideology or it comes from the core of that ideology?

That's the most important question for me.
In the case of Islam, it is not so clear what the right interpretation is. This
is a book that has been written a long, long time ago. Some parts may
sound strange or extreme in todays world, but weren't at the time. The same
is true for the bible. There are certainly peaceful interpretations of the Quran,
so we cannot condemn all of Islam as being extreme.
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