Sam Harris: Islam or Islamaphobia
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02-11-2013, 08:19 AM
RE: Sam Harris: Islam or Islamaphobia
(02-11-2013 08:06 AM)black_squirrel Wrote:  
(02-11-2013 07:51 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  When you have hate at the radical or extreme end of an ideology, is it possible that this hate comes from outside/misinterpretation of said ideology or it comes from the core of that ideology?

That's the most important question for me.
In the case of Islam, it is not so clear what the right interpretation is. This
is a book that has been written a long, long time ago. Some parts may
sound strange or extreme in todays world, but weren't at the time. The same
is true for the bible. There are certainly peaceful interpretations of the Quran,
so we cannot condemn all of Islam as being extreme.

The problem, however, is that the 'holy' texts contain hateful statements that can't be interpreted away.

These religions won't expunge the violent, hateful statements from their texts, so they remain to infect people's minds.

Any religion that claims The Truth™ and espouses violence to non-believers is inherently dangerous.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-11-2013, 10:43 AM
RE: Sam Harris: Islam or Islamaphobia
(02-11-2013 08:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-11-2013 08:06 AM)black_squirrel Wrote:  In the case of Islam, it is not so clear what the right interpretation is. This
is a book that has been written a long, long time ago. Some parts may
sound strange or extreme in todays world, but weren't at the time. The same
is true for the bible. There are certainly peaceful interpretations of the Quran,
so we cannot condemn all of Islam as being extreme.

The problem, however, is that the 'holy' texts contain hateful statements that can't be interpreted away.
Yes this is a problem. You and I cannot interpret them away. But some
religious people can interpret this away or simply ignore it. You can criticize Christianity and Islam, and their ``holy'' books. You can also criticize the followers
for endorsing these books with objectionable passages in it. But
I don't think one should equate all the followers with terrorists.
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02-11-2013, 12:18 PM
RE: Sam Harris: Islam or Islamaphobia
I want to know what the definition of extremist is. Does a moderate become an extremist when they commit violence? Where is that line?

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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02-11-2013, 01:37 PM
RE: Sam Harris: Islam or Islamaphobia
(02-11-2013 10:43 AM)black_squirrel Wrote:  
(02-11-2013 08:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  The problem, however, is that the 'holy' texts contain hateful statements that can't be interpreted away.
Yes this is a problem. You and I cannot interpret them away. But some
religious people can interpret this away or simply ignore it. You can criticize Christianity and Islam, and their ``holy'' books. You can also criticize the followers
for endorsing these books with objectionable passages in it. But
I don't think one should equate all the followers with terrorists.

I never have. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-11-2013, 01:41 PM
RE: Sam Harris: Islam or Islamaphobia
(02-11-2013 12:18 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  I want to know what the definition of extremist is. Does a moderate become an extremist when they commit violence? Where is that line?

The line for me is espousing violence or intolerance towards those with other beliefs, including 'apostates'.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-11-2013, 04:17 PM
RE: Sam Harris: Islam or Islamaphobia
(02-11-2013 01:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-11-2013 10:43 AM)black_squirrel Wrote:  Yes this is a problem. You and I cannot interpret them away. But some
religious people can interpret this away or simply ignore it. You can criticize Christianity and Islam, and their ``holy'' books. You can also criticize the followers
for endorsing these books with objectionable passages in it. But
I don't think one should equate all the followers with terrorists.

I never have. Drinking Beverage
I wasn't trying to imply that you did. But unfortunately many people do.
I get the impression that Sam Harris tries to lump the moderates
and extremists together.
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02-11-2013, 04:30 PM
RE: Sam Harris: Islam or Islamaphobia
(02-11-2013 04:17 PM)black_squirrel Wrote:  
(02-11-2013 01:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  I never have. Drinking Beverage
I wasn't trying to imply that you did. But unfortunately many people do.
I get the impression that Sam Harris tries to lump the moderates
and extremists together.

No, I don't believe he does.

What I hear is the moderates share the blame unless they are willing to denounce the extremists.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-11-2013, 06:39 PM
RE: Sam Harris: Islam or Islamaphobia
(02-11-2013 04:17 PM)black_squirrel Wrote:  
(02-11-2013 01:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  I never have. Drinking Beverage
I wasn't trying to imply that you did. But unfortunately many people do.
I get the impression that Sam Harris tries to lump the moderates
and extremists together.

I think the video demonstrates quite well that moderate and extreme Islam are one and the same. The only difference being that extremists actually act on their beliefs.

The fact is, Islam is not compatible with a modern, secular society... That's just the way it is.

The reason Islam is a problem is because, unlike Christianity and Judaism, fundamentalism is the norm rather than the exception.

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02-11-2013, 11:17 PM
RE: Sam Harris: Islam or Islamaphobia
(02-11-2013 12:18 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  I want to know what the definition of extremist is. Does a moderate become an extremist when they commit violence? Where is that line?

If justice has shades of grey 1-10, extremists are a 17
Extremists are so far over the line that's it's insane.

Steal a piece of fruit -
Justice could be a warning or maybe some community service or a fine.
Extremist would take the hand.

Unfaithful to your spouse
Justice might seek a divorce and division of property
Extremist would kill the adulterer by stoning to death

You get raped
Justice would hopefully be able to capture the rapist and after a trial, if he or she is found guilty based on evidence, then that person serves time in jail
Extremist would sentence the victim to 200 lashes and or mandate that she marry her rapist.

You don't step over a line and go from moderate to extremist.
You fly over that line and crash a plane into a building

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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02-11-2013, 11:34 PM
RE: Sam Harris: Islam or Islamaphobia
(02-11-2013 04:17 PM)black_squirrel Wrote:  
(02-11-2013 01:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  I never have. Drinking Beverage
I wasn't trying to imply that you did. But unfortunately many people do.
I get the impression that Sam Harris tries to lump the moderates
and extremists together.

Sam is simply showing that the word moderate in the Islamic world = extremist in the western world.
When a religion who sees death as an ultimate expression of life, cruelty as justice, pedofilia as marriage and segregation as equality, there are no moderates.
You only have twisted mental patients who proclaim themselves to be doctors.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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