Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
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26-04-2013, 12:22 PM
Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(26-04-2013 10:59 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(25-04-2013 08:52 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  It was a jab at you not addressing ByranS's points.

Not at all. I do not even know or care what you are arguing about. I just read your arguments and noticed you did not address his points.

Logica humano, how often do you start threads in the heavy stuff section?
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26-04-2013, 12:34 PM
Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(26-04-2013 09:35 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  
(26-04-2013 04:15 AM)BryanS Wrote:  The point of responding was to solicit this kind of response. Irrational adherence to political points of view is precisely what Sam Harris fears has developed on the left. Your posts have demonstrated his point nicely. It is clear you have the reading comprehension and debate skills of a turnip--those on the left who are not so limited may come to realize that support for Islamists doesn't actually help their cause. Feel free to continue serving out your role as useful idiot, but your service is on display for all to see on this thread.

Yeah, you can't support the blatantly bigoted, irrational, nonsensical and completely full of bull-fucking-shit view that immorality with regard to actions by Christian Americans is, somehow (by some magical, hidden, only known to you, too good to share, basis), not as immoral as immorality with regard to actions by Muslims.

So you come back with: Another completely unrelated, irrelevant mentioning of Sam Harris, an obvious ad hominem attack and another, obvious, misrepresentation of views (like somehow I was supporting Islamist).

How am I, at all representing an, "irrational adherence to political points of view"?

Who has been going around this thread talking about: "liberals this", "the left that"? Who has had the same point of view since that beginning of the thread? Who has not properly responded to any thoughts on the subject in a way that reflected something other than someone sticking to dogma? Who has been responding with talking points, rhetoric and fallacy? Who has been responding by naming or posting videos to people with similar views, and not backing up the claims? Who has been misrepresenting the views of their opponents? Who hasn't been, at all, trying to ask for, get familiar with and/or understand the view(s) of others, while ranting on as if they understood it perfectly?

What you have said throughout the entire thread, in response to me, including in that post, has not been, at all, following any objective, rational and/or thoughtful line of reasoning, and it definitely hasn't looked as if it came from someone who was objectively, rationally and thoughtfully understanding and concerning themselves with what I was saying-- in your first three responses to me, I had to mention that you (intentionally or not) were not understanding my position, yet you still went on as if you were perfectly familiar with it.

Truly X, what you are seeing in the responses to you are another example of why atheism and skepticism are not necessarily synonomous, and that atheism alone often just ends up supporting the current militaristic/imperialistic/Judeo Christian idea of morality. You can list the stats on weapons manufacturing, foreign interventions, coups to overthrow other leaders, support for dictators. Even though the U.S. is ahead in all of these categories, the non skeptical people here will look at those stats and still believe that somehow the west is somehow morally superior. THAT is the definition of a true believer.
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26-04-2013, 12:55 PM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
"Everyone knows this is not possible". What a great argument I&I! I recently learned that atheism is an accepted branch of Judaism. Judaism really is an ethnicity exemplified the efforts of the Nazi's efforts to eliminate all People with any Jewish relatives. Israel was founded as a way of survival - not for a religious goal . They were nearly annihilated in europe and in north america at the beginning of wwii we turned back a shipload of Jews trying to escape. The last time I was in Israel it was very secular - especially on the kibbutzes where they kept kosher only in the visitor's dining room for the visiting North American Jews .
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26-04-2013, 01:13 PM
Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(26-04-2013 12:55 PM)sandman Wrote:  "Everyone knows this is not possible". What a great argument I&I! I recently learned that atheism is an accepted branch of Judaism. Judaism really is an ethnicity exemplified the efforts of the Nazi's efforts to eliminate all People with any Jewish relatives. Israel was founded as a way of survival - not for a religious goal . They were nearly annihilated in europe and in north america at the beginning of wwii we turned back a shipload of Jews trying to escape. The last time I was in Israel it was very secular - especially on the kibbutzes where they kept kosher only in the visitor's dining room for the visiting North American Jews .

Why do you think the European followers of Judaism chose Israel to move to? Was it a random spot chose for random reasons? Or was it chosen and established for religious reasons?
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26-04-2013, 01:40 PM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
More historical reasons I would think and there was already a Jewish community there. North America was closed to them so there few other options. Only a few wild eyed Orthodox Jews had ideas about rebuilding the temple and looking for the messiah.
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26-04-2013, 01:44 PM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
Now it's another story with fundamentalist Christians who believe the Jewish state fulfills prophecy and will usher in the return of Christ and the thousand year reign of Christians on earth - a horrifying thought considering the warlike actions of the Americans with god on their side.

Never read health books. You could die of a misprint.

Mark Twain
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26-04-2013, 03:06 PM
Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(26-04-2013 01:40 PM)sandman Wrote:  More historical reasons I would think and there was already a Jewish community there. North America was closed to them so there few other options. Only a few wild eyed Orthodox Jews had ideas about rebuilding the temple and looking for the messiah.

So according to you, Zionist leaders did not believe Israel was of any religious significance but it was chosen merely out of convenience? And what makes you think these Europeans had any historical connection to anything in the Middle East? Do African Catholics get to take over the Vatican? Do European Muslims get to own and and control a country in the Middle East? There is no logical reason to believe a European should live in x country simply be ause he is of x belief. The only explanation for the support of this idea was for religious purposes. They like Christians believe that Jews are a race chosen by god and this race deserves to occupy Israel. Why should an atheist support that view?
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26-04-2013, 03:58 PM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(26-04-2013 03:06 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(26-04-2013 01:40 PM)sandman Wrote:  More historical reasons I would think and there was already a Jewish community there. North America was closed to them so there few other options. Only a few wild eyed Orthodox Jews had ideas about rebuilding the temple and looking for the messiah.

So according to you, Zionist leaders did not believe Israel was of any religious significance but it was chosen merely out of convenience? And what makes you think these Europeans had any historical connection to anything in the Middle East? Do African Catholics get to take over the Vatican? Do European Muslims get to own and and control a country in the Middle East? There is no logical reason to believe a European should live in x country simply be ause he is of x belief. The only explanation for the support of this idea was for religious purposes. They like Christians believe that Jews are a race chosen by god and this race deserves to occupy Israel. Why should an atheist support that view?

I think both you and sandman bring up valid points on Israel. It is pretty clear that the choice for the creation of the modern state of Israel had a lot to do with religion. We could have saved a lot of problems if the US didn't relent and recognize the state when it did.

That said, it is hard to deny that when a population targeted for having any drop of 'Jewish blood' is decimated, there would also be a strong desire to create a nation consisting of that same population. Where else would they have been able to create a nation? Why do the Kurds try to create a nation out of parts of Turkey, Syria, and Iraq--is that not a similar situation? Israel was the only logical place that they could organize a Jewish state if they were going to organize anywhere.

The real question is, what do we do now? I&I--what are you suggesting should be done. It's one thing to question the legitimacy of the creation of a Jewish state of Israel
. But they have that state now. They've had it for over half a century. Are you suggesting that we need to force Israel to abandon their state? How does that happen?
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26-04-2013, 04:22 PM
Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
Well lets look at history. The South African white minority ruled South Africa for many decades, the French ruled Vietnam and had many French citizens living there for several decades. The Belgians had many Belgian citizens in the Congo that lived there for many years, the French had many French citizens occupying Algeria for many decades. These Europeans occupied these nations so long they didnt view themselves as European and felt entitled to keep the power they had in non European countries. All of these European minorities that were in power implemented ethnic cleansing using various methods, some worse than others. Land settling was a common one, one that was implemented by the European immigrants to Israel, among many tactics. What happened to all the other past attempts of foreign people occupying another land and controlling the native people of that land? They existed for quite a long time until eventually the world and the native populations of those areas got tired and started to throw off the occupiers. The ones that remain today, like the u.s. or austrailia only were successful because most of the native populations were killed off. Israel is the last European colony and it will go just like the rest of them did. Do you remember South Africa?
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26-04-2013, 04:25 PM
Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(26-04-2013 03:58 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(26-04-2013 03:06 PM)I and I Wrote:  So according to you, Zionist leaders did not believe Israel was of any religious significance but it was chosen merely out of convenience? And what makes you think these Europeans had any historical connection to anything in the Middle East? Do African Catholics get to take over the Vatican? Do European Muslims get to own and and control a country in the Middle East? There is no logical reason to believe a European should live in x country simply be ause he is of x belief. The only explanation for the support of this idea was for religious purposes. They like Christians believe that Jews are a race chosen by god and this race deserves to occupy Israel. Why should an atheist support that view?

I think both you and sandman bring up valid points on Israel. It is pretty clear that the choice for the creation of the modern state of Israel had a lot to do with religion. We could have saved a lot of problems if the US didn't relent and recognize the state when it did.

That said, it is hard to deny that when a population targeted for having any drop of 'Jewish blood' is decimated, there would also be a strong desire to create a nation consisting of that same population. Where else would they have been able to create a nation? Why do the Kurds try to create a nation out of parts of Turkey, Syria, and Iraq--is that not a similar situation? Israel was the only logical place that they could organize a Jewish state if they were going to organize anywhere.

The real question is, what do we do now? I&I--what are you suggesting should be done. It's one thing to question the legitimacy of the creation of a Jewish state of Israel
. But they have that state now. They've had it for over half a century. Are you suggesting that we need to force Israel to abandon their state? How does that happen?

The Kurds want to create a country out of land they have been on for a long ass time and land that they are still on. If I was Assad in Syria I would immediately grant part of Syria as a Kurdish state. That would completely fuck with every pro-western nation in the area.
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