Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
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21-04-2013, 02:35 PM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(21-04-2013 12:55 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(21-04-2013 12:46 PM)Atheist in Westeros Wrote:  Liberals raging in this thread is quite amusing. Can't imagine the reaction to the crowd when Harris put out his essay on guns. Foaming at the mouth no doubt. Any kind of support for guns, Israel or the war in Iraq makes one a target for attack. Love seeing Harris being proved right.

Yep Bryan, Maher does sometimes make a good point, lots of crap comes out of his mouth but he has it right there.

Sometimes quoting statements against interest helps clear away some of the foam and make people think harder about their prejudiced opinions. They'll probably whine and gnash their teeth over this Mahr comment as well, but he's right in this case.

If there's hope for liberals to acknowledge the evil, to realize the threat from fundamentalists in one religion in particular, it is from the atheist community. It is only in the atheist community that the truth about the particular pernicious threat from Islam is even contemplated. Yet on this thread we can see how hard it is even for many atheists to acknowledge this due to some strange alliance between the left and fundamentalist Islam.

I hope people will think about their own stances on issues when hearing a something that contradicts their viewpoint but so far I haven't seen that here. It is unfortunate to me that many liberals seem to slip into a dogma of their own, which seems to boil down to that using force against others is wrong, especially if there is a chance of there being unintentional damage done. I wish that these people would realize that sometimes force is necessary, whether its going to war, or owning a gun to protect you and yours.

When it comes to Islam it seems this pacifism and often a belief that America is what is wrong with the world means the threat can not be seen. I agree, atheist thought these people might be they don't want to single out any religion as being worse than others so as not to be seen as somehow bigoted. It is fascinating to see the mental gymnastics done to try and remove religion from the problem and blame it all on poverty and American imperialism. I agree with Hitchens with his disgust toward the word "islamophobia", as if opposing the radical elements coming from the religion is somehow wrong.

Of course it does seem to be a problem that people see a one side or the other problem. With Iraq for instance, either you support Bush and all his policies toward the invasion and the war on terror or you oppose it all and see it as the next thing to a war crime. Grayness never enters into it...
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21-04-2013, 02:59 PM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(21-04-2013 02:35 PM)Atheist in Westeros Wrote:  I hope people will think about their own stances on issues when hearing a something that contradicts their viewpoint but so far I haven't seen that here. It is unfortunate to me that many liberals seem to slip into a dogma of their own, which seems to boil down to that using force against others is wrong, especially if there is a chance of there being unintentional damage done. I wish that these people would realize that sometimes force is necessary, whether its going to war, or owning a gun to protect you and yours.

When it comes to Islam it seems this pacifism and often a belief that America is what is wrong with the world means the threat can not be seen. I agree, atheist thought these people might be they don't want to single out any religion as being worse than others so as not to be seen as somehow bigoted. It is fascinating to see the mental gymnastics done to try and remove religion from the problem and blame it all on poverty and American imperialism. I agree with Hitchens with his disgust toward the word "islamophobia", as if opposing the radical elements coming from the religion is somehow wrong.

Of course it does seem to be a problem that people see a one side or the other problem. With Iraq for instance, either you support Bush and all his policies toward the invasion and the war on terror or you oppose it all and see it as the next thing to a war crime. Grayness never enters into it...


Hitchens' views on Islam are similar, and I think many here already know them. Less known is that most all of the leading voices in atheism have similar concerns about Islam. Dawkins is a bit less direct about it, but he will likewise point out that the penalty for apostasy in Islam is death, that this is the unambiguous interpretation of the faith, and the fundamentalists are not misconstruing the faith by adhering to this tenet. With regard to 'Islamophobia', Dawkins has particularly relevant commentary on the topic. In particular, Dawkins has been very outspoken about challenging the taboo on criticism of religious tenets.

Nuance would be nice to see, but you are correct that too often opposing views are caricatured beyond recognition. Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Bill Maher, Richard Dawkins, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and others have each in their own way pointed out the threat that uniquely comes from Islam.

And that has lead even recently to charges of Islamophobia not just in the youtube clip I posted from Maher, but from the left in none other than Salon:
http://www.salon.com/2013/03/30/dawkins_...amophobia/

Atheists need to push back on the criticism of Islam = Islamophobia BS. That BS comes exclusively from the left.
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21-04-2013, 03:55 PM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
A liberal is a conservative who hasn't been mugged yet.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-04-2013, 04:00 PM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(21-04-2013 03:55 PM)Chas Wrote:  A liberal is a conservative who hasn't been mugged yet.

An atheist is just a christian who hasn't seen the light of god.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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21-04-2013, 04:21 PM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(21-04-2013 03:55 PM)Chas Wrote:  A liberal is a conservative who hasn't been mugged yet.

Personally I support burying criminals under the jail but also want drug legalization and equal marriage rights. "Liberal" can be such a useless word.
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21-04-2013, 04:31 PM
Re: RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(21-04-2013 12:55 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(21-04-2013 12:46 PM)Atheist in Westeros Wrote:  Liberals raging in this thread is quite amusing. Can't imagine the reaction to the crowd when Harris put out his essay on guns. Foaming at the mouth no doubt. Any kind of support for guns, Israel or the war in Iraq makes one a target for attack. Love seeing Harris being proved right.

Yep Bryan, Maher does sometimes make a good point, lots of crap comes out of his mouth but he has it right there.

Sometimes quoting statements against interest helps clear away some of the foam and make people think harder about their prejudiced opinions. They'll probably whine and gnash their teeth over this Mahr comment as well, but he's right in this case.

If there's hope for liberals to acknowledge the evil, to realize the threat from fundamentalists in one religion in particular, it is from the atheist community. It is only in the atheist community that the truth about the particular pernicious threat from Islam is even contemplated. Yet on this thread we can see how hard it is even for many atheists to acknowledge this due to some strange alliance between the left and fundamentalist Islam.

I like how you rip people having prejudiced opinions and follow it up with a terrible assertion that only atheists see this point.

To boil any topic down to these indistinguishable groups is idiotic. Atheist, liberal, and conservative all cover a giant spectrum of thoughts on these topics.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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21-04-2013, 04:40 PM
Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(21-04-2013 01:27 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(18-04-2013 01:29 PM)I and I Wrote:  ... Israel? It is one of the many religious governments in the middle east that were founded on and based on religious beliefs.
...

Nope. Israel was founded as a secular state.

Many of the founders were atheist.

A bit like the US really but more so.

You are joking right? Israel was founded only on religious purposes. Do you think Europeans chose that place to migrate just for the fuck of it?
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21-04-2013, 04:41 PM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(21-04-2013 04:31 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I like how you rip people having prejudiced opinions and follow it up with a terrible assertion that only atheists see this point.

To boil any topic down to these indistinguishable groups is idiotic. Atheist, liberal, and conservative all cover a giant spectrum of thoughts on these topics.

True, groups are not monolithic. But please cite one accusation of Islamophobia in response to criticism of Islam that does not come from the left. By all means, please cite examples of prominent left leaning opinion makers and journalists who are not atheist and make the point that Islam is a unique threat among the faithful. Rather than just spouting unsupported claims, doing this would actually advance the conversation some. I've given lots of examples of left leaning atheists who do express this concern. And these are not no-names, these are leaders of atheist causes.
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21-04-2013, 05:12 PM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(21-04-2013 04:40 PM)I and I Wrote:  You are joking right? Israel was founded only on religious purposes. Do you think Europeans chose that place to migrate just for the fuck of it?

Think of the possibilities of applying that justification elsewhere. We can finally justify the European conquest of Africa with evidence that all of humanity had originated from Africa, and so have the right to carve out and displace any region they desired. All in all, apartheid worked out well for everyone, right?
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21-04-2013, 05:13 PM
Re: RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(21-04-2013 04:41 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(21-04-2013 04:31 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I like how you rip people having prejudiced opinions and follow it up with a terrible assertion that only atheists see this point.

To boil any topic down to these indistinguishable groups is idiotic. Atheist, liberal, and conservative all cover a giant spectrum of thoughts on these topics.

True, groups are not monolithic. But please cite one accusation of Islamophobia in response to criticism of Islam that does not come from the left. By all means, please cite examples of prominent left leaning opinion makers and journalists who are not atheist and make the point that Islam is a unique threat among the faithful. Rather than just spouting unsupported claims, doing this would actually advance the conversation some. I've given lots of examples of left leaning atheists who do express this concern. And these are not no-names, these are leaders of atheist causes.

You're talking about people there is always going to be a group breaking collection of humans.

I only go on this forum via my phone so I can't even link any links and I'm not gonna search random things. I wouldn't know why you demand that of me, you made a claim based on an assertion. Yes you have examples of what you are talking about but that doesn't mean people who fill other ideologies are without contempt for Islamic religious issue.

I don't care if you did find articles about it, what journalists or opinionists in media think doesn't express a viewpoint.

When it comes to European issues I've heard a lot more condemnation on the subject but I'm clueless to what ideological stances were there.
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