Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
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23-04-2013, 10:24 PM (This post was last modified: 23-04-2013 10:36 PM by PoolBoyG.)
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(23-04-2013 08:09 PM)BryanS Wrote:  I don't feel the need to temper my judgement of acts of individuals in societies that have norms that I find reprehensible.

So, the main belief being perpetuated here (glancing at some of the posts) is that the actions of a situational minority (bred in regions invaded, occupied, plundered, de-democratized, radicalised to serve short term goals for the past century) are representative of a billion people across the globe. Absolutely brilliant. That's not irrational and destructive at all.

Allow us all to follow THIS logic, if you can: "If Christian/Hindu/Jewish etc. fundamentalists get the opportunities to be terrorists, like Muslim fundamentalists get, they will become as intolerant and dangerous as Muslim terrorists. All religions have the potentials to make terrorists at any time. Even Buddhism, a so called peaceful religion can make terrorists. I hope you know how Buddhists in Myanmar killed and displaced thousands of poor Muslims. No one should forget about anti-Muslim pogrom of Gujarat in 2002. 2000 innocent Muslims were killed by Hindu extremists."

Let us now commence starting threads across the web, and making it a talking point for people of a particular political nature, to equate these minority few to all of Buddhism, Buddhists, and to any slightly "yellow skinned" people.
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24-04-2013, 06:02 AM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(23-04-2013 10:24 PM)poolboyg88 Wrote:  
(23-04-2013 08:09 PM)BryanS Wrote:  I don't feel the need to temper my judgement of acts of individuals in societies that have norms that I find reprehensible.

So, the main belief being perpetuated here (glancing at some of the posts) is that the actions of a situational minority (bred in regions invaded, occupied, plundered, de-democratized, radicalised to serve short term goals for the past century) are representative of a billion people across the globe. Absolutely brilliant. That's not irrational and destructive at all.

Allow us all to follow THIS logic, if you can: "If Christian/Hindu/Jewish etc. fundamentalists get the opportunities to be terrorists, like Muslim fundamentalists get, they will become as intolerant and dangerous as Muslim terrorists. All religions have the potentials to make terrorists at any time. Even Buddhism, a so called peaceful religion can make terrorists. I hope you know how Buddhists in Myanmar killed and displaced thousands of poor Muslims. No one should forget about anti-Muslim pogrom of Gujarat in 2002. 2000 innocent Muslims were killed by Hindu extremists."

Let us now commence starting threads across the web, and making it a talking point for people of a particular political nature, to equate these minority few to all of Buddhism, Buddhists, and to any slightly "yellow skinned" people.

Don't be dense.

TulyX is arguing that extremism in Islam is equivalent or even less bad than extremism in other religions in the West. He is arguing that this is because of 'context' in the West of liberal democracy requires holding religious nutters to a higher standard. I was disagreeing with that argument of TrulyX.

Are you now going to deny there are differences in the norms of Islamic societies? This is the list of my objections to common practices in Islamic countries that I posted upthread:
Quote:We do not execute people for being gay, we do not force women to wear burkas and restrictive garments or blow up schools for women to keep them uneducated, we do not condone honor killings, we do not round up youths and forcibly shave their heads and beat them for their appearance, we do not have morality police harass the public, we do not appeal to religious courts as the ultimate authority in our legal system, we do not condone killing people for converting their religion, and we do not condone issuing death threats for insulting religion.

If you think much of what I list above is rare, you are either obtuse or willfully ignorant.
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24-04-2013, 08:57 AM (This post was last modified: 24-04-2013 09:09 AM by TrulyX.)
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(24-04-2013 06:02 AM)BryanS Wrote:  TulyX is arguing that extremism in Islam is equivalent or even less bad than extremism in other religions in the West. He is arguing that this is because of 'context' in the West of liberal democracy requires holding religious nutters to a higher standard. I was disagreeing with that argument of TrulyX.

Not even close.

But, thanks for playing.

I do see what the problem is now: You don't fundamentally have any rational basis for your position. You are being ideological: you are either accepting what authority figures are telling you to be true or appealing to your own emotion (you actually used a large number of rhetorically and/or logical mistakes/fallacies), really disregarding any line of reasoning, even to your own position, to dogmatically stick to the same views, based completely in a vacuumed, bubble reality of subjectivity.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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24-04-2013, 09:33 AM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(24-04-2013 08:57 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  
(24-04-2013 06:02 AM)BryanS Wrote:  TulyX is arguing that extremism in Islam is equivalent or even less bad than extremism in other religions in the West. He is arguing that this is because of 'context' in the West of liberal democracy requires holding religious nutters to a higher standard. I was disagreeing with that argument of TrulyX.

Not even close.

But, thanks for playing.

I do see what the problem is now: You don't fundamentally have any rational basis for your position. You are being ideological: you are either accepting what authority figures are telling you to be true or appealing to your own emotion (you actually used a large number of rhetorically and/or logical mistakes/fallacies), really disregarding any line of reasoning, even to your own position, to dogmatically stick to the same views, based completely in a vacuumed, bubble reality of subjectivity.

If I may paraphrase here, "Not even close."

[Image: Untitled-2.png?_subject_uid=322943157&am...Y7Dzq4lJog]
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24-04-2013, 09:43 AM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(24-04-2013 08:57 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  
(24-04-2013 06:02 AM)BryanS Wrote:  TulyX is arguing that extremism in Islam is equivalent or even less bad than extremism in other religions in the West. He is arguing that this is because of 'context' in the West of liberal democracy requires holding religious nutters to a higher standard. I was disagreeing with that argument of TrulyX.

Not even close.

But, thanks for playing.

I do see what the problem is now: You don't fundamentally have any rational basis for your position. You are being ideological: you are either accepting what authority figures are telling you to be true or appealing to your own emotion (you actually used a large number of rhetorically and/or logical mistakes/fallacies), really disregarding any line of reasoning, even to your own position, to dogmatically stick to the same views, based completely in a vacuumed, bubble reality of subjectivity.

You could point out some of the 'large number of rhetorically and/or logical mistakes/fallacies', or you could just make a blanket accusation. One way is lazy, the other way is harder and more convincing. Is it that you fail to take on my points more directly a simple matter of frustration that you are incapable of doing so?
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24-04-2013, 04:33 PM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
Sam Harris is one blow job away from using the very classic cliche "the people that don't like the religious and political oppressive system of Israel.....well they must be racist. His dick is so hard for wanting to say that.

My prediction: he will say that somewhere within a years time. Bet anyone?

Drinking Beverage

And can someone explain why mr pretend atheist hasn't criticized the religious nation of Israel that was founded on and for religious purposes?
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24-04-2013, 06:16 PM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(24-04-2013 09:43 AM)BryanS Wrote:  You could point out some of the 'large number of rhetorically and/or logical mistakes/fallacies', or you could just make a blanket accusation. One way is lazy, the other way is harder and more convincing. Is it that you fail to take on my points more directly a simple matter of frustration that you are incapable of doing so?

I know, the lazy people are the ones who do the work of others.

You can't read and/or reason, for yourself? What in the hell have people been pointing out all thread long?

I'll take on your points directly: Your claims are baseless, nonsensical and full of shit. You can't get by that without begging the question, guaranteed, as you already have provided by showing that you are incapable of thinking for yourself. Call Sam Harris, and tell him to bring a shovel.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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24-04-2013, 06:19 PM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(24-04-2013 09:33 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(24-04-2013 08:57 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  Not even close.

But, thanks for playing.

I do see what the problem is now: You don't fundamentally have any rational basis for your position. You are being ideological: you are either accepting what authority figures are telling you to be true or appealing to your own emotion (you actually used a large number of rhetorically and/or logical mistakes/fallacies), really disregarding any line of reasoning, even to your own position, to dogmatically stick to the same views, based completely in a vacuumed, bubble reality of subjectivity.

If I may paraphrase here, "Not even close."

Stop trolling me, this is getting annoying.

Originally, I thought you were being sarcastic.

Were you not joking?

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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24-04-2013, 06:42 PM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(24-04-2013 04:33 PM)I and I Wrote:  Sam Harris is one blow job away from using the very classic cliche "the people that don't like the religious and political oppressive system of Israel.....well they must be racist. His dick is so hard for wanting to say that.

My prediction: he will say that somewhere within a years time. Bet anyone?

Drinking Beverage

And can someone explain why mr pretend atheist hasn't criticized the religious nation of Israel that was founded on and for religious purposes?

You don't really have to guess what Sam Harris would say on the topic, he already has. Took almost 30 seconds effort to google for this:
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/islam...liberalism

--------
Consider the position of Israel, which is so regularly vilified by the Left. As a secularist and a nonbeliever—and as a Jew—I find the idea of a Jewish state obnoxious. But if ever a state organized around a religion was justified, it is the Jewish state of Israel, given the world’s propensity for genocidal anti-Semitism. And if ever criticism of a religious state was unjustified, it is the criticism of Israel that ceaselessly flows from every corner of the Muslim world, given the genocidal aspirations so many Muslims freely confess regarding the Jews. Those who see moral parity between the two sides of Israeli-Palestinian conflict are ignoring rather obvious differences in intent.

My fellow liberals generally refuse to concede that the religious beliefs of groups like Hamas merit any special concern. And yet the slogan of Hamas, as set forth in Article 8 of its charter, reads: “Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.”

--------

He goes on to quote more from the Hamas Charter that makes clear they advocate Jihad and reject all peaceful means of resolving their problems with the Jews. Harris is a little more nuanced that I&I would suppose, saving his specific charges of antisemitism for Muslims while at the same time making clear he finds the idea of a Jewish state 'obnoxious'.

I don't think very many on the left are antisemitic like I&I is. Generally when you are so far left that you reach around and meet Pat Buchanan, you aren't really part of the mainstream left anymore.
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24-04-2013, 06:51 PM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(24-04-2013 06:16 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  I'll take on your points directly: Your claims are baseless, nonsensical and full of shit. You can't get by that without begging the question, guaranteed, as you already have provided by showing that you are incapable of thinking for yourself. Call Sam Harris, and tell him to bring a shovel.


Laughat

Stating "I'll take your points directly", and following up with none of the points is not taking on the points directly. That's not a very convincing 'argument'. In fact, it isn't an argument at all--more like an outburst pretending to be an argument.
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