Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
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26-04-2013, 05:15 PM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(26-04-2013 04:22 PM)I and I Wrote:  Well lets look at history. The South African white minority ruled South Africa for many decades, the French ruled Vietnam and had many French citizens living there for several decades. The Belgians had many Belgian citizens in the Congo that lived there for many years, the French had many French citizens occupying Algeria for many decades. These Europeans occupied these nations so long they didnt view themselves as European and felt entitled to keep the power they had in non European countries. All of these European minorities that were in power implemented ethnic cleansing using various methods, some worse than others. Land settling was a common one, one that was implemented by the European immigrants to Israel, among many tactics. What happened to all the other past attempts of foreign people occupying another land and controlling the native people of that land? They existed for quite a long time until eventually the world and the native populations of those areas got tired and started to throw off the occupiers. The ones that remain today, like the u.s. or austrailia only were successful because most of the native populations were killed off. Israel is the last European colony and it will go just like the rest of them did. Do you remember South Africa?

The South Africa example I'm fairly familiar with--not a very good comparison here. The Africans did not have the same level of hatred for the Afrikaners and other whites.

In regards to the point about who has settled Israel, I knew of course that many were form Europe, but this description of demographics says on the order of half the 75% population that is Jewish moved there from other Arab countries, and about 20% of the population are Arab and Muslim (ref http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Demographics) .

Some other interesting demographic breakdowns are here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel
In order from largest to smallest percentage of the population, we have:
Russia, 20.9%
Morocco, 15.2%
Poland, 8.3%
Iraq, 7.7%
Romania, 7.6%
Yemen, 4.9%
Iran, 4%
Algeria/Tunisia 3.8%

All remaining European countries make up about 11%, and the largest portion of that is from Eastern Europe.

Your characterization of Isreal being just a bunch of European transplants isn't entirely accurate or complete. The Soviets weren't particularly friendly to the Jews either, so no wonder most came from Russia or countries Russia controlled immediately after the war.
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26-04-2013, 05:24 PM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(26-04-2013 04:25 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(26-04-2013 03:58 PM)BryanS Wrote:  I think both you and sandman bring up valid points on Israel. It is pretty clear that the choice for the creation of the modern state of Israel had a lot to do with religion. We could have saved a lot of problems if the US didn't relent and recognize the state when it did.

That said, it is hard to deny that when a population targeted for having any drop of 'Jewish blood' is decimated, there would also be a strong desire to create a nation consisting of that same population. Where else would they have been able to create a nation? Why do the Kurds try to create a nation out of parts of Turkey, Syria, and Iraq--is that not a similar situation? Israel was the only logical place that they could organize a Jewish state if they were going to organize anywhere.

The real question is, what do we do now? I&I--what are you suggesting should be done. It's one thing to question the legitimacy of the creation of a Jewish state of Israel
. But they have that state now. They've had it for over half a century. Are you suggesting that we need to force Israel to abandon their state? How does that happen?

The Kurds want to create a country out of land they have been on for a long ass time and land that they are still on. If I was Assad in Syria I would immediately grant part of Syria as a Kurdish state. That would completely fuck with every pro-western nation in the area.

Most of the Arab 'refugees' were not born when Israel pushed the Arabs out of their land. Is that claim more legitimate? Israel is as much a foreign land to them as it was to Israel when the Jews took it.

Assad is a despot--no way he would grant anything to anyone, let alone the Kurds.
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27-04-2013, 04:44 PM
Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(26-04-2013 05:24 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(26-04-2013 04:25 PM)I and I Wrote:  The Kurds want to create a country out of land they have been on for a long ass time and land that they are still on. If I was Assad in Syria I would immediately grant part of Syria as a Kurdish state. That would completely fuck with every pro-western nation in the area.

Most of the Arab 'refugees' were not born when Israel pushed the Arabs out of their land. Is that claim more legitimate? Israel is as much a foreign land to them as it was to Israel when the Jews took it.

Assad is a despot--no way he would grant anything to anyone, let alone the Kurds.

Assad is a despot because he is ordering his army to fight foreign insurgents? The comparison to past European settlements was to show that 50 years is nothing and doesn't mean it is permanent. And the generational gap means nothing also. By the time past European settlements were kicked out, those people too were just as much a part of the so just as natives were. Btw why do most Israelis have European physical features?
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28-04-2013, 06:54 AM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(27-04-2013 04:44 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(26-04-2013 05:24 PM)BryanS Wrote:  Most of the Arab 'refugees' were not born when Israel pushed the Arabs out of their land. Is that claim more legitimate? Israel is as much a foreign land to them as it was to Israel when the Jews took it.

Assad is a despot--no way he would grant anything to anyone, let alone the Kurds.

Assad is a despot because he is ordering his army to fight foreign insurgents? The comparison to past European settlements was to show that 50 years is nothing and doesn't mean it is permanent. And the generational gap means nothing also. By the time past European settlements were kicked out, those people too were just as much a part of the so just as natives were. Btw why do most Israelis have European physical features?

"Assad is a despot because he is ordering his army to fight foreign insurgents? " Now that is what we call a straw-man. Never said that. Assad is a despot quite independent of the recent internal fighting he has been waging. Civil war is messy to be sure, but he has this horrible way of bombing city populations.

Do most Israelis have 'European features'? Couldn't really say. Many of the areas around the Mediterranean share similar traits I think. You're not saying only Arab-looking people have a right to live there, are you?
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28-04-2013, 04:36 PM (This post was last modified: 28-04-2013 04:39 PM by I and I.)
Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(28-04-2013 06:54 AM)BryanS Wrote:  
(27-04-2013 04:44 PM)I and I Wrote:  Assad is a despot because he is ordering his army to fight foreign insurgents? The comparison to past European settlements was to show that 50 years is nothing and doesn't mean it is permanent. And the generational gap means nothing also. By the time past European settlements were kicked out, those people too were just as much a part of the so just as natives were. Btw why do most Israelis have European physical features?

"Assad is a despot because he is ordering his army to fight foreign insurgents? " Now that is what we call a straw-man. Never said that. Assad is a despot quite independent of the recent internal fighting he has been waging. Civil war is messy to be sure, but he has this horrible way of bombing city populations.

Do most Israelis have 'European features'? Couldn't really say. Many of the areas around the Mediterranean share similar traits I think. You're not saying only Arab-looking people have a right to live there, are you?

Why do you think most Israelis especially the ones when Israel was founded had European physical features? According to you they share some ancient ethnic middle eastern traits. I say their ethnicity is not middle eastern at all. Did your god make their skin white thousands of years ago and so they would be good white people? Or maybe......just mother fuckin maybe, they aren't middle eastern at all and are European believers in Judaism.

When is Assad bombing his own cities just to exercise his power over his people? His country is being invaded by foreign fighters and they are attempting to take over and terrorize his people. Why shouldn't he drop bombs on people invading his country?
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01-05-2013, 08:12 PM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
Thought this survey about the rather large percentage of Muslims who support executing people who leave the faith would be good to add to this thread. Upthread, some wanted to discount my point about this concern specifically.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worl...=rss_world

Interesting results from this Pew study--they found about 2/3 of Egyptian and Pakistani Muslims would support killing someone for leaving Islam. Afghanistan hits 78%. Most of the Middle East has rather high percentages of Muslims who favor killing people who abandon Islam.

The percentages get rather low for Western countries with larger Muslim populations like Turkey and Kosovo. But it's not 'just' the fringe in Islam who thinks it's ok to murder people for their faith.
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01-05-2013, 10:55 PM
RE: Sam Harris--The End of Liberalism?
(01-05-2013 08:12 PM)BryanS Wrote:  Thought this survey about the rather large percentage of Muslims who support executing people who leave the faith would be good to add to this thread. Upthread, some wanted to discount my point about this concern specifically.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worl...=rss_world

Interesting results from this Pew study--they found about 2/3 of Egyptian and Pakistani Muslims would support killing someone for leaving Islam. Afghanistan hits 78%. Most of the Middle East has rather high percentages of Muslims who favor killing people who abandon Islam.

The percentages get rather low for Western countries with larger Muslim populations like Turkey and Kosovo. But it's not 'just' the fringe in Islam who thinks it's ok to murder people for their faith.

You mean people are dumb and want to kill other people for a belief? noooooo Saying vs Doing. Christians don't advertise on billboard that they want to kill millions of people for resources, but they fucking do it. Obama and Bush are christians......NEXT

Drinking Beverage

Sam Harris supports torture....NEXTDrinking Beverage
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