Sam Harris about Trump
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11-11-2016, 08:07 PM
RE: Sam Harris about Trump
(11-11-2016 11:57 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(11-11-2016 11:19 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I'm always amazed at Fareed Zakaria's intellect, insight, and his ability to boil it down to a TV-length clip:



This short one is also pretty good:



Yeah, that is right on point. I'm exhausted from having to explain to my conservative friends and family (most of them on both counts) that I am a hard-left Liberal and yet I loathe all those elements of modern liberalism as much as they do.

Sadly, what he's leaving out is that the right doesn't want to hear the arguments. They see the world in fairly simple, black-and-white terms that don't really fit the real world's grayscale, and the nuanced arguments simply cannot reach them because they won't listen. They have an imaginary view of the world and you can't convince them that the "Leave It To Beaver" version of America never actually existed, and we can't return to it even if it had. So all they see is "real America" slipping away, and when they try to express that feeling, they're treated with derision. Many of the arguments the conservatives make are in favor of structural racism, but when lefties call them "racist", all they can think is "but I'm NOT racist, and couldn't care less what color a person is", which is true-- and it leads them to an angry response that denies the real issue and shuts down all conversation... a conversation that NEEDS to happen in this country more than any other.

As part of that backlash, though, there are labels that continue to be applied to the left that are equally unfair. I keep hearing the word "liberal elite", but I don't know what it means. As far as I can tell, it's utter bullshit, as though we're masses of commies getting our marching orders from a central committee.

I'm a poor white person and I think my party (or rather, my ideological side) stands for the poor-- including all those white, poor voters who support the hyper-wealthy ACTUAL elites (and upper-middle-class "gated community" types) who want GOP policies in place to protect their greedy self-interest. It's why I recommended the book, a few weeks ago, What's the Matter with Kansas?, which tries to explain why poor whites seem to think that the wealthy care about them and the poor minorities are their opposition rather than their natural allies.

The "old guard" DNC needs to go, especially the 60s-era ones like Clinton who have become almost indistinguishable from the RNC candidates of 20-30 years ago. I'm not sure that means a Bernie-like candidate; I just know that the current course of liberal thinking is not sustainable.

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12-11-2016, 04:09 AM
RE: Sam Harris about Trump
(11-11-2016 11:57 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(11-11-2016 11:19 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I'm always amazed at Fareed Zakaria's intellect, insight, and his ability to boil it down to a TV-length clip:



This short one is also pretty good:




The more I think about this one the more it annoys me. This guy can often be spot on, but here he is essentially blaming minorities for standing up for themselves. But he himself is a white middle class able bodied man who doesn't have to put up with many injustices in society. And he does that by ranting and telling the left to shut up and not to tell the right to shut up. Hypocrite much?

So let me respond in kind.

No I shall not fucking shut up. If someone is racist, sexist, homophobic or transphobic then I shall tell them that they are otherwise they won't ever be challenged on their prejudices and feel the need to re-evaluate them.

And if Tom Walker, the person who plays Jonathan Pie, thinks that it was the left that put Trump into power, maybe he should read a bloody history book sometime.
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12-11-2016, 05:46 AM
RE: Sam Harris about Trump
(12-11-2016 04:09 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  No I shall not fucking shut up. If someone is racist, sexist, homophobic or transphobic then I shall tell them that they are otherwise they won't ever be challenged on their prejudices and feel the need to re-evaluate them.

And if Tom Walker, the person who plays Jonathan Pie, thinks that it was the left that put Trump into power, maybe he should read a bloody history book sometime.

Here is the problem with that. It isn't that they are calling actually racist, sexist, homophobic, and transphobic people. Its calling someone with a different view those things. Just because people don't agree on every single thing you agree with doesn't mean they hate gays. Just because one person doesn't support black lives matter, doesn't mean they hate black people. Just because you aren't a feminist, doesn't mean you want women to get back into the kitchen. Just because you don't want to see two lesbians kissing on the street doesn't make you homophobic, and just because you say there are only two genders, doesn't make someone transphobic. I agree with you that you must challenge those who are by questioning their claims, but don't assume someone is those things just because they don't agree.


And yes it was the lefts fault. For years you have insulted people who happened to have gay friends, minority family members or partners, and even gay people. And now they want to get back at the left for what they have done. Hell I have been called racist for not supporting black lives matter, and I am a black person. Right now it is better (if you are on the left) to look into the mirror and see what you did wrong. Because that is what led to brexit, that is what led to trump, and its going to led to trump like figures in France and Germany. Hell even in Canada it might happen. So it is time for self reflection.

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12-11-2016, 05:47 AM
RE: Sam Harris about Trump
Mathilda,

I think his point is not that minorities should not stand up for themselves. His point is that the way in which we stand up for ourselves matters. Talking down to people doesn't get them to listen; speaking with contempt and derision toward people who hold errors (because, as you put it, they've never really been in a position where they've had to critically evaluate their assumptions about the world, and they don't see a need to do so) will not cause them to pause and self-examine. It will close minds and cause a reaction. If a person doesn't even know what structural racism is and/or why it matters, they will say things that they don't realize are racist-- and when called "racist" in response, they will react with extreme hostility because they know in their hearts that they do not look at people differently because of skin color.

The Right has worked very hard on its phrasing over the past three decades. It's how "liberal" became a smear word, for instance.

It is a fundamental challenge of the Left to figure out how explain the difference between structural racism and Klan-type "personal hatred racism", and to frame their arguments in a way that doesn't come across as douchebaggery (such as social control attempts like attacking people for "cultural appropriation", or the whole SJW "trigger words" and "safe spaces", PC-policing language in general). So while the Left didn't put Trump in power, we aided his rise by causing a whole group of people to feel they were being attacked by people who stood against a culture they love, and to attack in return. And why wouldn't they love that culture? It suits them, and doesn't force them to look at how it may not be suitable for everyone who isn't like them. I have listened to my hyper-conservative family talking about this, endlessly, for the past year. When they say "losing our country", they really don't mean "to them darkies"... what they mean is that the "traditional" America, in terms of social values, feels like it is slipping away to the wild liberal ideals that have indeed been winning out over the years.

Yes, there are some actual sexists and actual racists (I think Trump is both), and sadly a great many more who resent the highly-educated "elites"... but to write off the Right as being those two categories ignores why Trump got so many votes. For instance, my parents both hold PhDs, two of my aunts are in interracial marriages, as are several of my cousins, and all voted for Trump. They are critical of Black Lives Matter and get FURIOUS if someone tries to suggest that the reason is because they are racist. The Left has been slinging around too many labels and unwarranted attacks, which robs the power from real situations where such attacks are warranted-- an example is a recent post where someone here wished that a conservative poster who was pro-gun would lose a family member to a gun incident, to which (to his credit), the guy responded by correctly pointing out that if he had wished the liberal would suffer a home invasion death because he could not meet the invader with armed force, we'd have lost our shit.

This, on a much larger scale, is what empowered Trump from a demagogue with a few asshole followers to someone half the voters in America would support. It's a resentment election. They have resented Hillary since the early 90s, and it has only gotten worse over the decades... and now they resent how they feel they are being treated by the snooty lefties in the big cities and universities.

Does that mean we should stop standing up against bullies and racists and bad policies? Hells, no. But we should be aware of how we are perceived by our ideological opponents, and why... and more importantly, what our liberal failure to reach everyday Americans is costing us.

Edit to Add: I see Zeke wrote pretty much the same thing, while I was typing, but he did it in fewer words. Kudos to you for that, Zeke. Tongue

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12-11-2016, 06:08 AM
RE: Sam Harris about Trump
(12-11-2016 05:47 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Edit to Add: I see Zeke wrote pretty much the same thing, while I was typing, but he did it in fewer words. Kudos to you for that, Zeke. Tongue

I tend to do that Wink only it is usually more vulgar Confused

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12-11-2016, 08:47 PM
RE: Sam Harris about Trump
(11-11-2016 08:07 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  ...
I just know that the current course of liberal thinking is not sustainable.

Well, there were a good few European Cassandras here who were saying this a month or more ago i.e. that US liberal = UK conservative.

Some re-branding is required.

(11-11-2016 08:07 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  ...
I'm not sure that means a Bernie-like candidate
...

I'm sure it means just that.

2020: VOTE NEW DEMOCRAT!

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13-11-2016, 01:19 AM
RE: Sam Harris about Trump
I agree entirely, DLJ.

I think Elizabeth Warren is exactly the kind of voice we need. It's a shame she's so dead-set against running for President. Everything she says makes me smile. I'm utterly baffled that the one main attack the Right has against her is the whole "I claimed to be of Native American ancestry even though I'm only 1/32nd and the cutoff for such a claim is 1/16th" thing.

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13-11-2016, 01:49 AM
RE: Sam Harris about Trump
(11-11-2016 09:53 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  He makes excellent points, especially about the whole Islam thing. It's even a common theme here. Anyone that says anything bad about Islam here is immediately attacked as a bigot. But the same people doing the attacking will disparage christians in the next breath. They use racist as a term to brow beat people into submission and people are absolutely sick of it. I've been called a racist more times than I can count on this website. My first wife was Indian/black and I have a daughter with her. Pisses me off more than I could explain.

The fear of unvetted refugees and gun rights (protection) were a major part of this election. Trump wasn't my first choice. There were better candidates in the pool and better that didn't even run. Trump said some crazy shit. But it doesn't matter if his plan protects us better, especially when the left won't even acknowledge the problem as Sam Harris says here. We expect the republicans in congress to keep him in check. Impeach him if he fails. The other choice (Hillary) would have let countless more unvetted refugees in and possibly lead to the shit we are seeing in Europe. As well as disarmed us with her supreme court picks. This was unacceptable to millions of people.
I agree with you. My husband was thinking a lot about places where he would have to hide his guns. Now he says it feels like I am in America again. He is an immigrant from El Salvador and he loves values of this country. He is proud to be an American. I am an immigrant from Ukraine(former USSR) I am proud to be an American. I cherish first amendment and hate this PC BS, I also cherish second amendment.
Trump also was not my first choice. But crooked Hillary is crooked.
Supreme Court is important(for both sides of course). But I don't need in court some liberal or conservative activists. I need those who would defend the Constitution.

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13-11-2016, 01:54 AM
RE: Sam Harris about Trump
(13-11-2016 01:19 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I agree entirely, DLJ.

I think Elizabeth Warren is exactly the kind of voice we need. It's a shame she's so dead-set against running for President. Everything she says makes me smile. I'm utterly baffled that the one main attack the Right has against her is the whole "I claimed to be of Native American ancestry even though I'm only 1/32nd and the cutoff for such a claim is 1/16th" thing.

I don't think that this is the main attack. She is a socialist! Duh.
But I like her new nickname. Smile

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13-11-2016, 02:22 AM
RE: Sam Harris about Trump
(13-11-2016 01:54 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(13-11-2016 01:19 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I agree entirely, DLJ.

I think Elizabeth Warren is exactly the kind of voice we need. It's a shame she's so dead-set against running for President. Everything she says makes me smile. I'm utterly baffled that the one main attack the Right has against her is the whole "I claimed to be of Native American ancestry even though I'm only 1/32nd and the cutoff for such a claim is 1/16th" thing.

I don't think that this is the main attack. She is a socialist! Duh.
But I like her new nickname. Smile

She's a what?

Being against crony capitalism and unchecked big business' self-interested (and against the average American's interest) influence over our government doesn't make you a socialist. Believing that investing in social infrastructure and making sure entire (productive) families don't go broke when a member of the family gets cancer or hit by a car doesn't make you a socialist. Believing that our tax dollars can be better spent trying to lift people out of poverty than bombing other countries doesn't make you a socialist.

Calling her a socialist for standing against hyper-capitalism is like calling me a Hindu just because I attack the bullshit that comes from Christianity.

You guys on the Right are going to have to come up with better smear-terms than the ones you made up in the 1950s and keep trying to apply to people with more nuanced versions of economic outlook, today.

I realize that if one is a hyper-right-wing thinker, then anything other than a Libertarian candidate seems to be a socialist, but that's just not the way it is. Indeed, Warren herself used to be a Republican, and in many ways would be a centrist in any other political spectrum other than the hard-right-shifted US spectrum.

Get a better argument.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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