Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study
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28-02-2013, 04:54 PM
RE: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study
(28-02-2013 04:32 PM)bemore Wrote:  



Another fascinating interview ive just listened to. Apparently it is unfeasible to how people actually have memories once the brain has flatlined, seeing as it cannot actually perform once it has ceased functioning.


Thats what I meant though... How are they so sure the memories were made, or the experiences were had WHILE the brain was dead?... and not just made afterward?
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28-02-2013, 05:07 PM
RE: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study
I've listened to some of that C2C claptrap... and it's bullshit. Fuckers get all euphoric over the woo without realizing that there are extant biological explanations for what has occurred. Then it's like a watch that has run down. From his tone, one should expect the watch to forget it is a watch once it is wound back up. Bullshit. Angry

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28-02-2013, 05:32 PM
RE: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study
(28-02-2013 05:07 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  ....extant biological explanations for what has occurred.
Which are?

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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28-02-2013, 05:54 PM
RE: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study
(28-02-2013 05:32 PM)bemore Wrote:  
(28-02-2013 05:07 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  ....extant biological explanations for what has occurred.
Which are?
In times of extreme stress, brain creates agency in mind to preserve function of mind, which is from a Dawkins vid. When shit gets hairy, the body produces adrenaline to do what needs to be done and to ignore pain; most likely same kinda shit happens near death. Dopamine or some DMT being released to prevent damage to mind. And the light business comes from the shutting down of the optic nerve. Or something - I ain't looking, I'm just remembering. But why ain't these "reputable scientists" looking? Cause they have a fucking agenda. Only got halfway through your other vid where the "scientists" we're impressed with the similarity of events, but which are easily explained as above. Yet they don't mention this. Angry

Bemore, you fluffy. Big Grin

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28-02-2013, 06:00 PM
RE: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study
Well I personally will wait until the scientific studies are completed and the data published for peer review before I make my mind up. The scientific community will either dismiss it or it may lead to further studies.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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28-02-2013, 06:05 PM
RE: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study
Parnia is not really trained in the field he pretends to be researching. He is a Critical Care MD, and Pulmonologist. He's not Neuro-Psych trained. He posits a human "mind", and often lists the long list of past (outdated) ideas about it. There is not a shred of evidence that human consciousness exists apart from oxygenated brain cells ... ie CURRENT sensory input rapidly referenced to memory, (which has been proven to be dependant on genetics). It's woo woo, just as HoC says. Parnia has not really proven anything about *when* his supposed "memories" are laid down, or even proposed a way they were made.

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01-03-2013, 01:35 AM
RE: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study
Thanks you all for your replies. Mostly for the skeptic ones because I don't believe this either but I could find no logical or skeptical explanation about this. However in Parnias work there is also one giant problem like one skeptic pointed out:
That when dualism is true. How a person who is near-death and the brain doesn't work according to believers can remember these things? Because:
Quote:Proponents of dualism perhaps they feel bold enough to claim that it is entirely shut down, even though that is really difficult to believe and not what is measured during surgery. Such a claim wouldn't even allow a transmission theory of memory to work, since the brain has to be operating to act as the transceiver. If consciousness still works even when the brain is completely inoperative, that is basically a theory of magic that does not involve the brain.
Besides also pointed out by the skeptic on the believer forum he said this also on Sam Parnias work:
Quote: It is premature for someone to claim that a few hours of clinical death followed by resuscitation implies that consciousness is immaterial. Why? Why doesn't it simply mean that all brain activity ceased and then started up again later? Does it imply that the heart is immaterial, too?

These are replies of Paul C. Anagnostopoulos. Taken from: http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptiko-po...rs-10.html
Also I personally doubt that there is no electric activity in the brain even when a person was "dead" for 10 hours or so like Parnia used the example of the woman because if she would be dead she could not be returned to life even when cooled down naturally by the environment.
I think this because then cryonics would work like Rationalwiki is telling:
Brain death occurs when the brain is starved of oxygen, usually after the heart stops beating. Unlike the heart, though, the brain cannot be restarted (see cryonics for some people who dispute this fact). This definition can prove very controversial in cases where it is the other way around. Consciousness can be lost perpetually, but the rest of the body can still go on due to unconscious processes.
Taken from : http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Death#Brain_death
There is even one more thing that came to my mind that even when the brain would have the ability to restart again the its nothing so unusual in nature we have a animal that does the same thing actually every winter called Weta a insect that can freeze itself and survive.
Taken from: http://jeb.biologists.org/content/201/2/227.full.pdf
So I think after reading all this and all your replies that Parnia is jumping to conclusions that are really woo and he is not looking for natural or rational explanations. Thanks very much for all of your replies.
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01-03-2013, 01:55 AM
RE: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study
I have a real problem with Parnia's descriptions of who he resuscitated and what their conditions actually were, and the time frames involved. I never saw that happen, and I have seen a lot of cardiac arrests, and successful, and unseccessful resuscitations. None of them ever were resuscitated in the (long) time frames he claims, or even attempted. Then there is the probem of the neuro-chemistry of memory formation. Studies, (human and animal) have shown little brain perfusion (blood) or glucose use when EEG's are flat. That means no memories can be created, chemically. So even if there were some way that a memory or Near Death experience could be formed during the hypoxia, (no or low 02), you would not experience them until reperfusion [blood flow] allowed you to subsequently dream them or wake up, and remember them because the chemistry of the oxidation of glucose in memory formation REQUIRES the presence of sufficient amounts of oxygen for the reaction to run in the foreward direcction. It's just not credible, chemically, unless he can demonstrate the ongoing reaction.

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03-03-2013, 01:52 PM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2013 03:42 PM by FSM_scot.)
RE: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study
For good reason, I applaud Dr Parnia's work. He’s having to
approach a very controversial and taboo subject under a cloud of scepticism.
But then, how could it be different for someone on the brink of making a
discovery that has the potential to change the world’s perception of life and
ourselves. His AWARE project is very close to proving the separation of mind
and body as death approaches.
How this is done is of great interest to me as I came up
with a very similar system when writing my own book. I contacted Dr Parnia
immediately to assured him that I hadn’t copied his work. In reply, he gave me
permission to use any material I wished from the Horizon Research Foundation website.
He said I had written a fascinating book. It seems my fiction-based book is
becoming fact. I also foresaw the emergence of the something very similar to
the very popular Death Cafes.

Another factual event happened the other week when a surgeon
removed the wrong kidney and killed a patient. By coincidence, I foresaw this
also.
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03-03-2013, 04:05 PM
RE: Sam Parnia: Erasing Death book and AWARE study
(03-03-2013 01:52 PM)JohnCorder Wrote:  For good reason, I applaud Dr Parnia's work. He’s having to
approach a very controversial and taboo subject under a cloud of scepticism.
But then, how could it be different for someone on the brink of making a
discovery that has the potential to change the world’s perception of life and
ourselves. His AWARE project is very close to proving the separation of mind
and body as death approaches.
How this is done is of great interest to me as I came up
with a very similar system when writing my own book. I contacted Dr Parnia
immediately to assured him that I hadn’t copied his work. In reply, he gave me
permission to use any material I wished from the Horizon Research Foundation website.
He said I had written a fascinating book. It seems my fiction-based book is
becoming fact. I also foresaw the emergence of the something very similar to
the very popular Death Cafes.

Another factual event happened the other week when a surgeon
removed the wrong kidney and killed a patient. By coincidence, I foresaw this
also.


Dualism - bah, humbug. Dodgy

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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