Same old question!
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28-02-2015, 08:01 AM (This post was last modified: 28-02-2015 08:06 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Same old question!
(27-02-2015 07:25 PM)pablo Wrote:  
Quote:My God is invisible because of human sin and the free will thing.

Please elaborate on this, I really want to see you pull all this together.

Get ready to see the delusional fantasy of Q, he flies around in this world of the imagination with his Jeebus wings as he creates one ad-hoc rationalization after another.

What Q thinks his reality is:

[Image: White-Unicorn-with-Fairy-flying-image-1500x1100.jpg]

Here's what rational people see:

[Image: o-JIMMY-KRYUNE-HORSE-570.jpg?1]

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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02-03-2015, 02:16 AM
RE: Same old question!
(27-02-2015 11:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(26-02-2015 07:05 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Yeah, that's the same old dismissive response theists have been using for years.

Note how they've never been able to give a compelling answer to any of the following questions:
  • Where is your god? Oh, he's invisible and out side of space and time? So are leprechauns, because I say so.
  • What is your god? A super powerful entity that we can't possibly hope to comprehend? Sounds like Cthulhu.
  • Why should I care about your god? I have an invisible soul and it will go to a good place or bad place that I cannot see after I die? Sounds like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that always seems to move when I chase it.
You have to presuppose so many things to "answer" these questions. We keep asking the same old questions because they haven't stopped feeding us the same old shit in response.

1. My God is invisible because of human sin and the free will thing. My God is readily visible in the scriptures and person of Jesus. Corrected to why is God sometimes invisible.

2. You can certainly comprehend God. I can comprehend a being of great knowledge and love even if I pale in those areas. Also, it's not like the Bible contains one sentence about God only.

3. You should care about my God because that affects this world as much as the next.

I'll only say you say the "same old" questions if you henceforth repeat these.

Your answers are rather summary. Could you tell me more about what you mean by "human sin and the free will thing"?

I am not at all surprised when you mention scripture, since that is probably what I would have said when I was a believer. For me nowadays, the believability of an unusual or even miraculous story does not improve when written down by multiple ancient authors. In fact, its credibility drops under those circumstances. I understand that people are sometimes dishonest, and always fallible. I also understand how stories, especially mythic folk tales of magic and mystery, change over the years.

Even with all of my doubts about the accuracy of ancient stories, I don't think any length of time makes a difference for me when the story is supernatural or magical. There are some things I wouldn't believe even if the person I trusted the most told me. For example, I would doubt a story about a reanimated corpse wandering around my neighborhood until all other possible explanations had been utterly exhausted. Reading the same narrative in an ancient text isn't a step forward in credibility.

I don't know why you personally find scripture compelling, but I remember why I did. I believed people I trusted and loved when they told me so. They just told me over and over that the scriptures were true. They raised me in a home and community that rewarded that particular belief and encouraged affirmations, not criticisms or doubts. Any innocent doubts were gently treated with a circular appeal to the very scriptures I doubted. They reminded me many times that they didn't just believe the scriptures, they "knew" they were true. Their testimony was something they told me I could gain for myself if I read the scriptures and prayed, just as they had done.

One of the books I prayed about was The Book of Mormon. We were a Mormon family so that was as important a book as the Bible is to Christians, if not more so. I have asked myself since then why I relied on this emotion method of determining a book's truth, as though the wild emotions of a teenager could somehow reveal to me the facts of a text without research or legitimate learning. Why was I so convinced that book was infallibly true and of god?

I don't know you, but if you are a Christian, I think its fair to guess you don't think much of that experience. You might have prayed about the bible and felt something real to you, but could never understand how someone might do the same with the Book of Mormon. Maybe your testimony of the bible, perhaps gained through the spirit, makes you certain that no competing book could possibly be true. I might be assuming a lot, but I have parallels of my own. I read the Quran in high school and felt nothing like my witness that the Book of Mormon was true. Why is it that practically no one is convinced by the books of other faiths? Why is it that I didn't read the Quran and feel that it was true? When I consider the sheer number of conflicting and competing faiths and texts, I am unable to believe in these methods for obtaining truth.

I think its true that I can comprehend all kinds of gods, even some really complex ones. I still have to get the concepts from somewhere, and ultimately someone. I have never personally experienced god, but I have lied about it to fit in. Ultimately and regardless of my reasons for claiming belief, I have to trust other people who in turn trust others or the scriptures. The scriptures had authors who in their turn trusted the stories of those who claimed to witness important events, as told by their descendants long after the fact. This seems to me a shadow of a hope at best, and maybe even something akin to pyramid scheme. If it were possible to go back to the top of the pyramid, there might not be anyone who actually experiences "god" at all.

I am not saying you are exactly like me, or are destined to experience what I have. Maybe you have a better reason than I did for believing in what the scriptures of your faith say. I just don't keep my hopes up since I haven't heard any from anyone so far.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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02-03-2015, 08:59 AM
RE: Same old question!
Strange isn't it.. How only members of one religion only experience things concerning their own religion.

Same as the only people who have seen ghosts... Are people who believe in ghosts.

The only people who are abducted by aliens.. Are people who believe in aliens.

There's some link here I can't put my finger on.
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02-03-2015, 09:45 AM
RE: Same old question!
I go into detail why questions can't be answered here (read through the thread for more info).

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02-03-2015, 12:36 PM
RE: Same old question!
(27-02-2015 11:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. My God is invisible because of human sin and the free will thing. My God is readily visible in the scriptures and person of Jesus. Corrected to why is God sometimes invisible.

See, I mean maybe, but it's such a cop out answer. It reminds me of all the claims kids would make on the playground about being able to fly or something else, and then just refusing to prove it.

If those kids wanted me to take them seriously, they would have made provable claims. Same for YHWH.


(27-02-2015 11:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. You can certainly comprehend God. I can comprehend a being of great knowledge and love even if I pale in those areas. Also, it's not like the Bible contains one sentence about God only.

I mean more of comprehending his motives. It's why people always say things like "the Lord works in mysterious ways". No one has ever been able to adequately describe why God does things or what his plan is precisely because it doesn't make sense.

And before you say "it doesn't have to make sense" or "it's not our place to understand", remember my previous statement about claims made on the playground.


(27-02-2015 11:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  3. You should care about my God because that affects this world as much as the next.

No one has ever demonstrated that any gods have any tangible effect on this world, nor have they ever proven there is a next world.

Sure, you can say that if I don't believe in [God] that my [soul] will go to [hell], but that only "makes sense" because you choose to believe in all of those things. To someone who doesn't make all of those assumptions, it's as meaningful as saying if I don't believe in [fleem] that my [floom] will go to [flum]. I mean, who even cares? No one knows what fleems, flooms, or flums are. Why should we start assuming they must be important and and assigning value to them when they can't be shown to exist, let alone described in a coherent fashion with definitions with which everyone would agree?
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02-03-2015, 03:24 PM
RE: Same old question!
(27-02-2015 06:08 PM)TheStraightener Wrote:  
(27-02-2015 11:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Another thought if I may?

Hundreds of times, I've seen movie teasers and trailers that intrigued me. I then watched those movies. Hundreds of times, I've encountered Bible questions that intrigued me and then researched them. So yeah, it does get a bit old when atheists are always like "Why is God so mean" since they're talking about my own Father and Friend, as if they know Him better than I do! That's cray-cray.

So you class god as a friend and You say you know him...can you answer any of the following?

What sport does he like? What's his favourite team? What does his voice sound like? What accent does he have?

I can answer all those questions about my father and friends... Can you answer just one?

Would you have a friend who isn't a sport fan? Would you be friends with a mute person or a person you haven't met but who is an online pen pal from far away--a friend who also wrote poetry and prose for you to enjoy? Would you sympathize with a friend whose father died when they were little, so that they do not hear his voice, but whose father left them a loving and sizable inheritance?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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02-03-2015, 03:27 PM
RE: Same old question!
(28-02-2015 08:01 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(27-02-2015 07:25 PM)pablo Wrote:  Please elaborate on this, I really want to see you pull all this together.

Get ready to see the delusional fantasy of Q, he flies around in this world of the imagination with his Jeebus wings as he creates one ad-hoc rationalization after another.

What Q thinks his reality is:

[Image: White-Unicorn-with-Fairy-flying-image-1500x1100.jpg]

Here's what rational people see:

[Image: o-JIMMY-KRYUNE-HORSE-570.jpg?1]

Here's what I see when atheists post silly pictures rather than expressing reason, questions and thoughtful input:

[Image: agnostic_4.jpg]

Why feed Christian notions of atheism? Why play games?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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02-03-2015, 03:30 PM
RE: Same old question!
(02-03-2015 12:36 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(27-02-2015 11:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. My God is invisible because of human sin and the free will thing. My God is readily visible in the scriptures and person of Jesus. Corrected to why is God sometimes invisible.

See, I mean maybe, but it's such a cop out answer. It reminds me of all the claims kids would make on the playground about being able to fly or something else, and then just refusing to prove it.

If those kids wanted me to take them seriously, they would have made provable claims. Same for YHWH.


(27-02-2015 11:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. You can certainly comprehend God. I can comprehend a being of great knowledge and love even if I pale in those areas. Also, it's not like the Bible contains one sentence about God only.

I mean more of comprehending his motives. It's why people always say things like "the Lord works in mysterious ways". No one has ever been able to adequately describe why God does things or what his plan is precisely because it doesn't make sense.

And before you say "it doesn't have to make sense" or "it's not our place to understand", remember my previous statement about claims made on the playground.


(27-02-2015 11:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  3. You should care about my God because that affects this world as much as the next.

No one has ever demonstrated that any gods have any tangible effect on this world, nor have they ever proven there is a next world.

Sure, you can say that if I don't believe in [God] that my [soul] will go to [hell], but that only "makes sense" because you choose to believe in all of those things. To someone who doesn't make all of those assumptions, it's as meaningful as saying if I don't believe in [fleem] that my [floom] will go to [flum]. I mean, who even cares? No one knows what fleems, flooms, or flums are. Why should we start assuming they must be important and and assigning value to them when they can't be shown to exist, let alone described in a coherent fashion with definitions with which everyone would agree?

Problems here are endemic. You wish we'd live in a world where little kids only make falsifiable claims...?! You also have rejected ALL of hundreds of apologetics I've posted about what you call "mysterious ways" and what I call "let's discuss the Bible to see if it address this question(s)". It's not really my burden if you want to keep believing ALL the ways of the Lord are mysterious. I think nearly none of them are mysterious!

As for
Quote:No one has ever demonstrated that any gods have any tangible effect on this world, nor have they ever proven there is a next world.

I would ask you to again consider the person of Jesus, His extraordinary words and claims, His universal appeal--even the cults love Him as foretold (!)--and His resurrection from the dead. There are good reasons to consider the resurrection from the dead a fact--which would indicate Jesus's divinity.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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02-03-2015, 03:40 PM
RE: Same old question!
(02-03-2015 03:30 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  There are good reasons to consider the resurrection from the dead a fact--which would indicate Jesus's divinity.

Maybe you could amuse us by listing some of these "good reasons". I have never seen any. It is possible to doubt that Jesus ever existed in the first place (at least as he is described in the Bible), and the resurrection is a lot less believable than his existence. All the "good reasons" that have been presented to me so far have amounted to "it says so in the Bible" ("historical fiction" written by "true believers" many years after the fact), and that's not very convincing. Do you have something better?
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02-03-2015, 04:10 PM
RE: Same old question!
(02-03-2015 03:27 PM)Qlueless Wrote:  
(28-02-2015 08:01 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Get ready to see the delusional fantasy of Q, he flies around in this world of the imagination with his Jeebus wings as he creates one ad-hoc rationalization after another.

What Q thinks his reality is:

[Image: White-Unicorn-with-Fairy-flying-image-1500x1100.jpg]

Here's what rational people see:

[Image: o-JIMMY-KRYUNE-HORSE-570.jpg?1]

Here's what I see when atheists post silly pictures rather than expressing reason, questions and thoughtful input:

[Image: agnostic_4.jpg]

Why feed Christian notions of atheism? Why play games?

All you have is your fantasy land of rationalization, there is no reason with you.

BTW- You can get the hell off this forum anytime, no one wants you here.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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