Same old question!
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05-03-2015, 06:20 AM
RE: Same old question!
(05-03-2015 03:07 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(04-03-2015 01:01 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  We can compose an infinite number of questions likewise. But the Bible offers clues on both your questions and mine. I've seen estimates on the number of shots you can take on any pool table to be in the millions or more, but any good billiards teacher will explain that most shots fall into similar patterns and can be played effectively and simply.

In other words, when you make a statement like "everything in the universe that I question, the Bible and Christians ultimately say is due to mysterious ways" I cannot possibly disagree more strongly. I always try to either give and answer or a Socratic question or both. You just don't accept the answers you've been given, that's all. The Bible DOES have thousands of pages of answers including answers to many of life's questions and the questions you've asked.

drown the children in the flood instead of just their parents? (you didn't like the answers of children go to heaven instead of growing up to be like the parents who were so evil they died in the flood--not a mystery)

kill the first born Egyptians instead of just the ones who held slaves? (the whole nation held the Jewish nation in thrall, and was given to idolatry--the whole nation of Egypt was judged for slaughtering the whole generation of Jewish babies--Moses escaped this, remember?--not a mystery)

give men foreskins? (he made all things good originally and foreskins have uses as you know for everything from pleasure to hygiene--but the covenant with Israel is a BLOOD covenant in circumcision--shades of Jesus--not a mystery)

create Tay Sachs and harlequin babies? (there is suffering in the world due to not only Adam's sin, but yours and mine--not a mystery)

make a universe this vast? ("the heavens declare the glory of God" and cause us to wonder--some of us wonder accurately--not a mystery)

The very WORD mystery comes from the scriptures where Paul gives nine mysteries and answers eight of them in the passages where they appear. A Bible mystery is something happening now or then that is revealed in purpose after. You are taking "mysterious ways" way off base IMHO.

You make it clear that none of these questions or their answers present any great mystery to you. That seems very strange to me. It seems to me that you are missing the deeply nonsensical and morally outrageous aspects of your answers.

For example, you justify the mass drowning of the great flood by saying that all the people were simply evil. If you really believe this, it seems to me that you would have to believe that the children were evil, even those not yet born. You would have to believe the disabled and sickly were evil. This simplistic and morally unsatisfying explanation seems to me to reflect a lack of empathy that is fundamental. I find it difficult to believe that you actually believe that human beings are not born innocent, especially when they are utterly without capacity to do wrong or harm. Even if I were to take these awful assumptions as truth, I would have to ask myself if I believe that among such a large population there was not at least one adult innocent as well. Is the ratio of morally sound individuals to those morally unsound so unbalanced as that?

Given that I am unable to believe in the evil of innocents, I cannot believe that their deaths were justified. It may have seemed natural in a bronze age society to accept that the individual is the property of the state to be killed on a whim without moral justification. It may have been considered reasonable that a creator god had the right to dispose of his creations as he saw fit. What I do not understand is how any of these attitudes are anything but a time capsule from the days of unrestricted tyranny and abuse. We are living in a world where this kind of view is well behind catching up to what is commonly considered good moral and ethical sense.

I will give you another example. You offer up human sin as the explanation for suffering. That is on its face certainly an explanation, yet not one without serious questions to be asked. How can it be said that a creation that is the product of omnipotence and omniscience is capable of doing anything other than its created purpose? If god knows all possible outcomes in advance, yet creates rebellious, curious, and perhaps even sinful creations, isn't it reasonable to assume this state of imperfection is intended?

The phrase "created sick, commanded to be sound" stays with me as a description of this situation. Man is supposedly created with an imperfect nature followed by the notice that his nature is sinful and abhorrent to his creator. Add to this Hell, and you are left with what I can only call a sadistic abusive experiment, but without the wondering about the results.

I think it is fairly common for Atheists to be asked something like "What happened to you?" as though their position is the product of suffering alone. I have certainly noticed how the worst of times can bring someone to a state in which they begin to question their beliefs. I think it is these extreme situations that really bring the problem of evil home to a person in a way that they cannot ignore or rationalize away.

Some suffering and some evil is just so utterly disproportionate to any possible even perceived guilt, that any author of it would most certainly be a sadist. There are some things to which we would not subject even our hated enemies.

When I come across someone saying the things you are saying, I can't help but think that they simply haven't run into enough suffering and evil yet to bring this all home to them. Maybe they just haven't really empathized with a child suffering from the hell of something like Tay Sachs.

So, can it be that you really think things like drowning millions or say Hell are proportionate, just punishments for any crime? Can you bring yourself to blame humanity for its own creation?
I realize now that Q is an intellectual slave, but this slavery has a methodology and that methodology is called hermeneutics, Q thinks he knows how to interpret the bible, but he's totally Qlueless in how to interpret the bible because of the intellectual handcuffs of hermeneutics.
He's been sold this intellectual slavery and now is able to excuse every atrocity or ridiculous myth the bible has in it. He's been told WHAT to think by using a process that eliminates HOW to think, we see his intellectual slavery every time he comes up with one of his "special" interpretations of a book of atrocities.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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05-03-2015, 07:01 AM
RE: Same old question!
(04-03-2015 01:01 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  drown the children in the flood instead of just their parents? (you didn't like the answers of children go to heaven instead of growing up to be like the parents who were so evil they died in the flood--not a mystery)

So murder is justifiable because the innocent will go to heaven? Obviously not, although you'll likely give God a special exception to this rule.

God could have spared the children and had Noah raise them, since he was deemed to be a moral man, but he didn't.


(04-03-2015 01:01 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  kill the first born Egyptians instead of just the ones who held slaves? (the whole nation held the Jewish nation in thrall, and was given to idolatry--the whole nation of Egypt was judged for slaughtering the whole generation of Jewish babies--Moses escaped this, remember?--not a mystery)

Did the whole nation of Egypt commit these crimes? Did the first born children who were killed commit these crimes?


(04-03-2015 01:01 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  give men foreskins? (he made all things good originally and foreskins have uses as you know for everything from pleasure to hygiene--but the covenant with Israel is a BLOOD covenant in circumcision--shades of Jesus--not a mystery)

First of all: gross.
Second: why did God need (or want!) a blood covenant?
Third: why no covenant with the women?


(04-03-2015 01:01 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  create Tay Sachs and harlequin babies? (there is suffering in the world due to not only Adam's sin, but yours and mine--not a mystery)

So, a child is born with a horribly painful, terminal disease because their parent sinned? How is that fair? Why doesn't it always happen? Why does it seem to be genetically predisposed to certain types of people?


(04-03-2015 01:01 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  make a universe this vast? ("the heavens declare the glory of God" and cause us to wonder--some of us wonder accurately--not a mystery)

So, to brag? I mean, this is the closest you've gotten to giving an answer that doesn't raise more questions, and the answer it gives is "God's a huge narcissistic". I'm not sure if I should score you 1/5 or -1/5.
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05-03-2015, 08:55 AM
RE: Same old question!
Mark, your post about Jesus' resurrection is fantastic. Very informative. Bravo!

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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05-03-2015, 09:01 AM
RE: Same old question!
(27-02-2015 11:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(26-02-2015 07:05 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Yeah, that's the same old dismissive response theists have been using for years.

Note how they've never been able to give a compelling answer to any of the following questions:
  • Where is your god? Oh, he's invisible and out side of space and time? So are leprechauns, because I say so.
  • What is your god? A super powerful entity that we can't possibly hope to comprehend? Sounds like Cthulhu.
  • Why should I care about your god? I have an invisible soul and it will go to a good place or bad place that I cannot see after I die? Sounds like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that always seems to move when I chase it.
You have to presuppose so many things to "answer" these questions. We keep asking the same old questions because they haven't stopped feeding us the same old shit in response.

1. My God is invisible because of human sin and the free will thing. My God is readily visible in the scriptures and person of Jesus. Corrected to why is God sometimes invisible.

2. You can certainly comprehend God. I can comprehend a being of great knowledge and love even if I pale in those areas. Also, it's not like the Bible contains one sentence about God only.

3. You should care about my God because that affects this world as much as the next.

I'll only say you say the "same old" questions if you henceforth repeat these.
Yes. Because your answers are so goddamn compelling. Not asserted bullshit at all..
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05-03-2015, 09:07 AM
RE: Same old question!
(27-02-2015 11:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Another thought if I may?

Hundreds of times, I've seen movie teasers and trailers that intrigued me. I then watched those movies. Hundreds of times, I've encountered Bible questions that intrigued me and then researched them. So yeah, it does get a bit old when atheists are always like "Why is God so mean" since they're talking about my own Father and Friend, as if they know Him better than I do! That's cray-cray.

No what's "cray cray" is the fact that you claim to personally know the fictitious creator of the universe...
I personally know Darth Vader. He is also not as evil as people say. And it hurts me deeply when people attack him. So I go to study the films to reconcile things. And people think they know Vader better than I.
You see how fucking nuts that sounds.
Yeah, that's how you sound..
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05-03-2015, 11:43 AM
RE: Same old question!
I still maintain that The Q has never actually refuted the points made in my paper on the resurrection concerning the GREEK language and it's context in Jewish Apocalypticism, (which in is complete agreement with Dr. Bernard B. Scott, a respected Christian scholar and (Tulsa) seminary professor of NT, in is book, "The Trouble with Resurrection".

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...other-look

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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05-03-2015, 12:05 PM
RE: Same old question!
(05-03-2015 11:43 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I still maintain that The Q has never actually refuted the points made in my paper on the resurrection concerning the GREEK language and it's context in Jewish Apocalypticism, (which in is complete agreement with Dr. Bernard B. Scott, a respected Christian scholar and (Tulsa) seminary professor of NT, in is book, "The Trouble with Resurrection".

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...other-look

He won't address any of your points and then start meandering to whatever he wants to talk about. He's an evasive BS'er, but that's exactly what you have to be to be a preacher.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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05-03-2015, 02:34 PM
RE: Same old question!
I recall, in the short time frame I attended church, the pastor telling the story of the resurrection.

The flock was in awe as the pastor painted this verbal masterpiece of the Son of God doing all this for YOU. He willfully accepted the torture for YOU. Died on the cross for YOU. Descended to Hell to defeat Satan for YOU. And then rose from the dead to assure his divinity all for YOU. And all YOU have to do is love HIM.

Very compelling if you want to be compelled....

....and I was sitting there like "YOU are all morons".
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