Sand Castles and bowling ball?
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13-03-2010, 12:22 PM
 
Sand Castles and bowling ball?
If you were walking on a beach, by yourself and nobody was around, and you found a large ornate sand castle, would your first thought be "Wow isn't that amazing the way the wind blew the sand in that pattern and the moisture in the air helped to hold the sand together, chance is a beautiful thing" Or would you say "someone is really talented at sculpting" I ride dirt bikes in the desert, and frequently we will be 20 miles from anything and we will find something, last week we found bowling pins and a bowling ball. I don't "wow amazing way those atoms formed out here in the desert" No I think someone brought them here. To walk around this earth and look at what is around you and say that it came from chance, is really a leap of faith.

I firmly believe that if God created evolution and atheist believed in creationism (I know totally stupid comment) that the atheist would laugh the evolutionist out of the water.
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13-03-2010, 12:32 PM
 
RE: Sand Castles
I was going to call you out for trying to use the "Watchmaker argument"... but that last line made your entire post not even worth it....
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13-03-2010, 12:50 PM
 
RE: Sand Castles
(13-03-2010 12:32 PM)DrNekoDR Wrote:  I was going to call you out for trying to use the "Watchmaker argument"... but that last line made your entire post not even worth it....

My comment was "what would you think?" You're only concerned with "arguments" get past it, be a free thinker, you're a vet prove God doesn't exist based on YOUR experience with the animal body, or the birds migrating etc. TEACH US SOMETHING. Show me why my last comment was stupid (even though I called myself out on it) The point was not the stupid comment it was how do you feel about it. What if atheists believed in creationism and theists believed evolution, would you believe in God then? Or are you so concerned with not believing that you would be a creationist. Call that stupid I don't really care, but if you took the comment seriously, it would cause you to look in yourself. To the best of knowledge I have never heard that before so look it up and see if anyone else has made a comment similar to that, and if they haven't then that is the free thinking I am talking about.
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13-03-2010, 12:59 PM
RE: Sand Castles and bowling ball?
(13-03-2010 12:22 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  If you were walking on a beach, by yourself and nobody was around, and you found a large ornate sand castle, would your first thought be "Wow isn't that amazing the way the wind blew the sand in that pattern and the moisture in the air helped to hold the sand together, chance is a beautiful thing" Or would you say "someone is really talented at sculpting" I ride dirt bikes in the desert, and frequently we will be 20 miles from anything and we will find something, last week we found bowling pins and a bowling ball. I don't "wow amazing way those atoms formed out here in the desert" No I think someone brought them here. To walk around this earth and look at what is around you and say that it came from chance, is really a leap of faith.

There are a few problems with this.
The first is that, yes, it is technically possible for a sand castle to form naturally. It's incredibly unlikely, but over billions of words and billions of beaches with billions of winds stirring the sand over billions of years, it will eventually happen.
Then there's the same problem with the Kalam Cosmological argument: the universe cannot have had a cause, because outside of the universe there is no time and therefore no causality.
Then there's the fact that the things you are (probably) trying to make this analogy about - evolution, abiogenesis, the formation of planets and stars, et cetera - are all explained very easily through known natural processes.
(13-03-2010 12:50 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  you're a vet prove God doesn't exist based on YOUR experience with the animal body

Burden of proof fallacy.

Quote:What if atheists believed in creationism and theists believed evolution, would you believe in God then?

This is the same thing you objected to in the thread about the Heavy Rock Paradox. It's the fallacy of contradictory premises. "Creation" is, by definition, creation of the universe by a god. Atheists, by definition, do not believe in a god, and so cannot believe in creation.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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13-03-2010, 01:43 PM
RE: Sand Castles and bowling ball?
Martin, what you are saying makes no sense whatsoever. It is impossible even by the standards of a hypothetical situation. I'm not as knowledgeable on question of logic as Unbeliever or others, I'll admit to that, but I'll try to explain, in my own words, why I think so.

A theist is a person who believes in a supreme being who created the universe and is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. So by definition, a theist is a creationist. And also by definition, an atheist would be someone who does not believe that such a being exists, and therefore that person would automatically reject creationism. Which is why it is impossible even to imagine such a situation.

Now, if what you wanted to say is that atheists should try to 'brainwash' themselves and think as if they had adopted the other position, this would be a horse of another colour. But then it all boils down to why a certain person is an atheist. Blindly following an established set of beliefs, without even thinking of questioning them and submitting them to critical thinking, is folly, no matter what you believe in. It works the same for atheists, those who don't believe that there is a god just because they were told so are no better than the religious. However, from my experience, atheism is derived, in most cases, from skepticism. A skeptic will believe nothing unless s/he has solid evidence and will also analyze this evidence to see if it is possible for it to be false.

It's a known fact that the evolutionist was conceived when Darwin traveled to the Galapagos island and noticed that it was populated with species that couldn't be found in any other part of the world, although they had some similarities with the animals on the mainland. Since the island had formed recently, it couldn't have had life on it unless it migrated from the mainland. Which eventually led him to the conclusion that they must have evolved to adapt to the specific conditions of the island. In time, paleontological diggings revealed skeletons of dinosaurs and other species that have since gone extinct. Through analysis and comparison to currently living species, and especially after running DNA tests, scientists came to the conclusion that some species evolved from others through mutations of a certain characteristics.

Now if I was to compare this theory to the the bible's version of how life appeared, the former is far more likely than the latter, for reasons that I'd prefer not to delve into at the moment, for they've been debated over and over again. Personally, I do not entirely reject the existence of a god, I just don't think that, even if such a being does exist, it's the one in the bible, because I find it implausible and ridiculous, and to me it is pretty obvious that it was written by a superstitious Bronze Age civilization with little knowledge of the real structure of the world. I don't claim to speak for all atheists/agnostics out there, this is my own personal belief, I might be wrong, but until shown otherwise I will continue to follow the path I find to be the most probable and credible, and which has been proven, at least in part.

To end this, let me say some more about your example of the sandcastle and the bowling ball. When you see a sand castle on the beach that has is very exquisitely done and closely resembles the shape and structure of a real castle, you can be sure it was man-made, because it imitates an object seen in real life, i.e. a building used for living in, which is also man-made. The bowling ball is also man made because it is designed for a human activity.

Now if you looked at the Grand Canyon, for example, will you say 'wow look at how god shaped that' or will you say 'wow it's amazing how millions of years of erosion have led to this'?

All learning is quite useless if you haven't learned to question what you learn.
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13-03-2010, 02:01 PM
 
RE: Sand Castles and bowling ball?
(13-03-2010 01:43 PM)Juppers Wrote:  Martin, what you are saying makes no sense whatsoever. It is impossible even by the standards of a hypothetical situation. I'm not as knowledgeable on question of logic as Unbeliever or others, I'll admit to that, but I'll try to explain, in my own words, why I think so.

A theist is a person who believes in a supreme being who created the universe and is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. So by definition, a theist is a creationist. And also by definition, an atheist would be someone who does not believe that such a being exists, and therefore that person would automatically reject creationism. Which is why it is impossible even to imagine such a situation.

Now, if what you wanted to say is that atheists should try to 'brainwash' themselves and think as if they had adopted the other position, this would be a horse of another colour. But then it all boils down to why a certain person is an atheist. Blindly following an established set of beliefs, without even thinking of questioning them and submitting them to critical thinking, is folly, no matter what you believe in. It works the same for atheists, those who don't believe that there is a god just because they were told so are no better than the religious. However, from my experience, atheism is derived, in most cases, from skepticism. A skeptic will believe nothing unless s/he has solid evidence and will also analyze this evidence to see if it is possible for it to be false.

It's a known fact that the evolutionist was conceived when Darwin traveled to the Galapagos island and noticed that it was populated with species that couldn't be found in any other part of the world, although they had some similarities with the animals on the mainland. Since the island had formed recently, it couldn't have had life on it unless it migrated from the mainland. Which eventually led him to the conclusion that they must have evolved to adapt to the specific conditions of the island. In time, paleontological diggings revealed skeletons of dinosaurs and other species that have since gone extinct. Through analysis and comparison to currently living species, and especially after running DNA tests, scientists came to the conclusion that some species evolved from others through mutations of a certain characteristics.

Now if I was to compare this theory to the the bible's version of how life appeared, the former is far more likely than the latter, for reasons that I'd prefer not to delve into at the moment, for they've been debated over and over again. Personally, I do not entirely reject the existence of a god, I just don't think that, even if such a being does exist, it's the one in the bible, because I find it implausible and ridiculous, and to me it is pretty obvious that it was written by a superstitious Bronze Age civilization with little knowledge of the real structure of the world. I don't claim to speak for all atheists/agnostics out there, this is my own personal belief, I might be wrong, but until shown otherwise I will continue to follow the path I find to be the most probable and credible, and which has been proven, at least in part.

To end this, let me say some more about your example of the sandcastle and the bowling ball. When you see a sand castle on the beach that has is very exquisitely done and closely resembles the shape and structure of a real castle, you can be sure it was man-made, because it imitates an object seen in real life, i.e. a building used for living in, which is also man-made. The bowling ball is also man made because it is designed for a human activity.

Now if you looked at the Grand Canyon, for example, will you say 'wow look at how god shaped that' or will you say 'wow it's amazing how millions of years of erosion have led to this'?

Juppers,

I don't want to sound condescending, I know you are not looking for my approval. BUT GREAT JOB, THAT IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!!!!!! We disagree, but they were your thoughts, you made good points, I don't care about fallacies, burden of proofs etc. I wanted to know what you thought and you told me. I look forward to hearing more from you in the future.

Now using your comment about the sand castle bowling ball, I would say that this planet was "designed for a human activity" and that it was God that designed it.
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13-03-2010, 02:16 PM (This post was last modified: 13-03-2010 02:22 PM by Unbeliever.)
RE: Sand Castles and bowling ball?
(13-03-2010 02:01 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Now using your comment about the sand castle bowling ball, I would say that this planet was "designed for a human activity" and that it was God that designed it.

And I would say the opposite. This planet was not designed for humans. Humans adapted to the planet.
Have you ever heard the story of the sentient puddle? It was written by Douglas Adams, author of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. It goes something like this:

A puddle wakes up one morning, looks around it and thinks, "Well, this is a nice hole I find myself in. It fits me rather well. In fact, it fits me staggeringly well. It must have been made to have me in it!"

Do you see? The hole was not made for the puddle. The puddle conforms to the hole. We believe that the world was made for us because, hey, look: the sun goes up just when we wake up and goes down when we get tired, there's all kinds of edible things around, it's not too hot or too cold. The planet must have been made for us. In fact, the exact opposite has taken place. We have shaped ourselves to conform to the planet.

EDIT: Snip to move a bit to the Bickering thread.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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13-03-2010, 02:40 PM
 
RE: Sand Castles and bowling ball?
I don't mind admitting that I actually believe that something set "all of this" into motion. But I also believe that 'creator' is quite beyond my ken -- and it's certainly beyond the understanding of Middle Eastern savages who had barely more than a modern day junior high student's understanding of the natural world. I would no more consult their scribblings about spirituality any more than I would consult their scribblings about medicine if I were a doctor.

Another place where Christians and I part company, Martin, is the belief that said creator gives a rat's ass what I do with my genitals, my vote, and my Sunday mornings... or has the need to communicate with me via ancient texts or through other humans... or has such low self-esteem that it requires me to boost its ego by pledging fealty and judging others who don't believe the same way I do. To me, that sounds an awful lot like a human ruler -- a fallible, petulant human ruler. I can't believe something like that could be responsible for the infinite wonders of the universe.
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13-03-2010, 03:21 PM
 
RE: Sand Castles and bowling ball?
(13-03-2010 02:40 PM)Platypus Man Wrote:  I don't mind admitting that I actually believe that something set "all of this" into motion. But I also believe that 'creator' is quite beyond my ken -- and it's certainly beyond the understanding of Middle Eastern savages who had barely more than a modern day junior high student's understanding of the natural world. I would no more consult their scribblings about spirituality any more than I would consult their scribblings about medicine if I were a doctor.

Another place where Christians and I part company, Martin, is the belief that said creator gives a rat's ass what I do with my genitals, my vote, and my Sunday mornings... or has the need to communicate with me via ancient texts or through other humans... or has such low self-esteem that it requires me to boost its ego by pledging fealty and judging others who don't believe the same way I do. To me, that sounds an awful lot like a human ruler -- a fallible, petulant human ruler. I can't believe something like that could be responsible for the infinite wonders of the universe.

Again nice job, we disagree but I appreciate your feelings.

In regards to your genitals, Let's take sex before marriage, admittedly they got married at young age in Bible times, But I have yet to meet a woman, who in high school, was forced to have sex to keep the boy who doesn't regret having sex for the first time with him. And I have yet to meet a guy who gives a crap about that. Ladies feel free to respond, younger girls ask your mom if she regretted her first sexual experience, guys ask your wives. Teen pregnancies, sexual diseases, woman's guilt would be reduced.
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13-03-2010, 03:54 PM (This post was last modified: 13-03-2010 04:00 PM by ashley.hunt60.)
RE: Sand Castles and bowling ball?
(13-03-2010 12:22 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  If you were walking on a beach, by yourself and nobody was around, and you found a large ornate sand castle, would your first thought be "Wow isn't that amazing the way the wind blew the sand in that pattern and the moisture in the air helped to hold the sand together, chance is a beautiful thing" Or would you say "someone is really talented at sculpting" I ride dirt bikes in the desert, and frequently we will be 20 miles from anything and we will find something, last week we found bowling pins and a bowling ball. I don't "wow amazing way those atoms formed out here in the desert" No I think someone brought them here. To walk around this earth and look at what is around you and say that it came from chance, is really a leap of faith.

I firmly believe that if God created evolution and atheist believed in creationism (I know totally stupid comment) that the atheist would laugh the evolutionist out of the water.

Blind watch maker argument I see. We see sand castles made by humans, and humans only. We have never seen a sand castle come from nature, and we have no idea how a sand castle would come from nature.

Humans, animals, plants, these things we see come from nature, and we know they could have come from nature, with no divine intervention needed. What is more, is that we have evidence to support our theories of how they came to be.

So here is the logic process. We have seen sandcastles made my humans, and humans only. We see a sand castle, we know humans exist, and have the ability to make sand castles, and are the only things that can make sand castles. So we have decent reason to believe a human made a sand castle.

We have not seen a good, or how life started. Although we see life, we don't have evidence for god. We do not have enough evidence to suspect that life most likely came from god.

We have evidence to suspect that life can be formed from non-organic chemicals. We have very strong evidence to believe that life diversifies. Significantly more evidence than any other idea. Enough evidence to even take it as fact.

And of course, the big difference between a sandcastle and a cat; cats have babies, sand castles don't. In regards to the creation-evolution switch, setting aside the basic logic flaws, I would go with whichever provided more compelling evidence, provided that at least one has compelling evidence. If neither were possible, I would reject both. So, if creation had evidence, and evolution didn't, I would be a creationist.

Little fun fact to throw in, some atheists believe that aliens created life, and thus are both creationists and atheists.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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