Saudi cleric claims Sun rotates around the Earth
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01-09-2016, 05:31 AM
RE: Saudi cleric claims Sun rotates around the Earth
(01-09-2016 12:00 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(31-08-2016 08:36 AM)izel Wrote:  Yeah but, one of the saddest thing is that, these regions had such a rich and fascinating history, such as those in Iran and Iraq (more specifically, Mesopotamia). Our civilization just owes so much to those regions, which were by far the most advanced in early antiquity, but today they have some of the most backwards cultures in humanity. I always wonder what those places would be like if Islam was never created Consider

They were advanced civilizations when they were occupied by Europeans. As the ice cap covering Europe receded and Mesopotamia turned into an arid desert, they left and the people left behind are the slave classes they created who hung onto their old cults and rituals while Europeans adopted Hellenistic Christianity. If Islam had not been created they would be the same because no one reads the Koran. Muslims in real life just follow a lot of rituals like circumcision and animal sacrifice and circumambulation of a meteorite and they engage in bigamy, beheading and all the sorts of things they did before Islam.

You have elided the time lines to create this fantasy. There were no advanced civilizations when humans populated Europe.

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01-09-2016, 06:46 AM
RE: Saudi cleric claims Sun rotates around the Earth
(01-09-2016 05:31 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-09-2016 12:00 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  They were advanced civilizations when they were occupied by Europeans. As the ice cap covering Europe receded and Mesopotamia turned into an arid desert, they left and the people left behind are the slave classes they created who hung onto their old cults and rituals while Europeans adopted Hellenistic Christianity. If Islam had not been created they would be the same because no one reads the Koran. Muslims in real life just follow a lot of rituals like circumcision and animal sacrifice and circumambulation of a meteorite and they engage in bigamy, beheading and all the sorts of things they did before Islam.

You have elided the time lines to create this fantasy. There were no advanced civilizations when humans populated Europe.


Damned right. We all come from Africa. Read Caesar. The Romans fought naked people painted blue.

The Romans won.

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01-09-2016, 06:55 AM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2016 06:58 AM by Reltzik.)
RE: Saudi cleric claims Sun rotates around the Earth
(01-09-2016 12:00 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  They were advanced civilizations when they were occupied by Europeans.

While Mesopotamian and Middle-east civilization generally was quite often advanced relative to its neighbors, in absolute terms it has been more advanced in the past century than ever before. I.... guess that corresponds to European occupation?

But in relative terms, NO. They were more advanced than their neighbors in early history because of the easy farming afforded by their location, and the wide variety of staple crops (wheat and barley, to name two of the big ones) and domesticatable animals (cows and horses) native to the region. The agricultural surpluses these advantages yielded allowed the rise of cities with specialist economies and the logistics for armies.

Probably the last time that the region could be seen as the leading light of civilization (though it would have a hard time competing with China) would be around the 9th century CE or so. Islam was the regional religion, but it was relatively relaxed, allowing science and culture to thrive despite its dictates. Then a wave of fundamentalism swept the region, choking off science and free expression, and... well the place has never really recovered its lead. However, Iberia didn't really suffer the same fate and IT did pretty well until the Christian-European Reconquista ended it.

(01-09-2016 12:00 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  As the ice cap covering Europe receded and Mesopotamia turned into an arid desert,

...... waaaaaaaaait. The last glacial period ended over 11000 years ago, before civilization existed. .... Have you done the math on this timeline of yours? Because I don't think you've done the math on this timeline of yours.

(01-09-2016 12:00 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  they left and the people left behind are the slave classes they created

Typically the slave classes were whoever was there to be conquered when barbarian waves rode in from the eastern steppes every few centuries or so. This pattern didn't end until the advent of gunpowder challenged the dominance of cavalry. The last great example of this were those freaks of history, the Mongols.

Also, why the hell would the rich and powerful migrate hundreds or thousands of miles when they've got palaces and slaves and people who will grow their food regardless of how hard growing it gets? Its not like these people would have the means, or the desire, to keep running maps of how easy it was to farm in the northern latitudes of Europe (or that Mediterranean Europe would have looked any more attractive). How would they know to go there? If anything, increasingly arid conditions would have forced them into the river valleys, rather than driving them north to Europe.

May I read into your eagerness to dismiss the potential of former slaves that you have a very negative, dismissive, and overall disdainful attitude towards African-Americans?

(01-09-2016 12:00 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  who hung onto their old cults and rituals while Europeans adopted Hellenistic Christianity different cults and rituals, now old.

Fixed that for you. Thumbsup

(01-09-2016 12:00 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  If Islam had not been created they would be the same because no one reads the Koran.

The rate of Koran-reading in the Muslim world is about on par with the rate of Bible-reading in the Christian world.

(01-09-2016 12:00 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Muslims in real life just follow a lot of rituals like circumcision

Which Christians NEVER do. Dodgy

(01-09-2016 12:00 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  and animal sacrifice

Not a mainstay of Islam at all. There are rare and intermittent societies that practice animal sacrifice in addition to Islam. There are also societies that practice animal sacrifice in addition to Christianity.

(01-09-2016 12:00 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  and circumambulation of a meteorite and they engage in bigamy, beheading and all the sorts of things they did before Islam.

Polygamy (get it right) had a long history in Christianity as well. The meteorite is a minor detail, but pilgrimage to holy sites is also a long Christian tradition still ongoing today.

There's much that's problematic about Islam, but about the only real problem you cited was beheading. Frankly Christians have done that too. A lot. And the problem isn't beheading, specifically, but the eager embrace of capital punishment, whatever the specific method of execution. Something else Christianity is guilty of.

At its root, though, the problem with Islam is the same problem as the problem with Christianity -- ancient scripture believed on faith rather than evidence, with fundamentalists, literalists, and conservatives imposing it on the people around them in as bloody and vehement a manner as they can get away with (and then a bit further than that just to test the limits), and generally being the blight of humanity. This isn't true of all Muslims just like it isn't true of all Christians, but to the extent that they believe strongly in and act upon the religion as written, both are banes of civilization and human well-being.
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01-09-2016, 07:47 AM
RE: Saudi cleric claims Sun rotates around the Earth
(31-08-2016 02:49 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  


Phil Plait wrote a critique of this hypothesis on the Bad Astronomy blog. He says that while some of what is depicted in the video is partially correct much of it is just flat out wrong.

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01-09-2016, 08:11 AM
RE: Saudi cleric claims Sun rotates around the Earth
I bitch slapped myself for being stupid enough to watch that video.

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01-09-2016, 08:34 AM
RE: Saudi cleric claims Sun rotates around the Earth
(01-09-2016 07:47 AM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  
(31-08-2016 02:49 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  


Phil Plait wrote a critique of this hypothesis on the Bad Astronomy blog. He says that while some of what is depicted in the video is partially correct much of it is just flat out wrong.

I'm amused Phil Plait didn't point out that the video has Jupiter's orbit wider than Saturn's... but that seems minor compared to the depiction of the 90 degree plane-offset. That was my first thought, and I assumed he was drawing it at 90 degrees for visual effect, to show that it's not simply flat. I wished he would have shown it at its real angle, but I figured maybe that was tougher for his animation software to depict. I've used this visual before to explain the principle, with the caveat about the angle not being perpendicular... someone really needs to render it accurately, as that really would be a fantastic learning tool. (And without all the "all of nature is a helix" bullshit woo-woo.)

I'm gonna pause here to throw in a brief commercial for the free program put out by NASA that lets you see all the objects, from comets to satellites (both natural and manmade) to probes, in the Sol system, called Nasa's Eyes. You can watch what's going on in real time, click to zoom to anywhere, and project into the past or future, all with mouse-clicks. It's my favorite thing I've ever downloaded!

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