Saved by Grace.
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24-11-2011, 08:44 PM
RE: Saved by Grace.
(24-11-2011 08:28 PM)daemonowner Wrote:  Aren't we supposed to need saving because of original sin? Maybe someone who actually used to be a christian could correct me on that..

Yes, Original Sin is the term given for the belief that all of creation is under condemnation for destruction since The Fall: the title given to the act of eating the tasty pomegranate when God told them not to. Their "sin" was disobeying God after he told them not to touch the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. God put them and all of creation under a curse. Life would be tough. You might break a sweat when you work. Women are going to feel pain in child birth, and stuff like that. So God had to cast them out of the Garden of Eden before they ate from the Tree of Everlasting Life. Can you imagine if Humanity had the Knowledge of Good and Evil?* Why, nobody has the Knowledge of Good and Evil AND lives forever! Huh? What? Oh, God lives forever and knows good and evil? So if humans ate that magic fruit they would become Gods? This is the TRUE Original Sin--Humankind rejecting God's ways and choosing to follow their own thinking. {Can you feel any compassion for someone who spent 40 years buying much (not all, but much) of this silly stuff? It's tough to choose to leave Christianity behind and become a free-thinking when right there in the 3rd chapter of the Bible it says that's the one biggie original sin!}

*{I am not sure if Pastor Erxomai ever picked up on this: Eating the fruit that gave them Knowledge of Good and Evil basically presented them with the gift of Free Will. So by the transitive properties of A,B, and C, then Free Will is Sinful. Yet it is held up as a great virtue by non-Calvinistic Churches}.

Moving to Romans in the New Testament, written by Paul, the man who Invented Christianity, he says that through one man, Adam, sin entered the world and affects all people and all creation is groaning to be redeemed (bought back...reboot). Now Jesus is the new and improved Super Adam and Paul says it is through one man (let's not start the Cur Homo Deus debate yet) that salvation will come to all and our sins will be washed away in His Blood. Praise Jeebus.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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24-11-2011, 08:45 PM
RE: Saved by Grace.
(24-11-2011 08:28 PM)daemonowner Wrote:  Aren't we supposed to need saving because of original sin? Maybe someone who actually used to be a christian could correct me on that..

Original sin was overturned by Ezekiel. Christianity tends to overlook that factoid. Wink

All that is necessary with the sola fides of Paul is moral certainty. This only develops from experience, alignment with ethical standard, and love. There you go - right past all the dogma to the ascension of atheist. Heart

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24-11-2011, 08:51 PM
RE: Saved by Grace.
(24-11-2011 08:40 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(24-11-2011 07:57 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(24-11-2011 04:59 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  One of the things that I feel makes me a decent human being is an ability to look beyond myself without the need of a moralizing agency.

Dude, I think that is a prerequisite of being a human being. Wink

Wonderful, if true; to limit "evangelical atheist" to this locality of insanity. Big Grin

Let's see what we can do HoC.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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24-11-2011, 08:56 PM (This post was last modified: 24-11-2011 08:58 PM by houseofcantor.)
RE: Saved by Grace.
(24-11-2011 08:44 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(24-11-2011 08:28 PM)daemonowner Wrote:  Aren't we supposed to need saving because of original sin? Maybe someone who actually used to be a christian could correct me on that..

Yes, Original Sin is the term given for the belief that all of creation is under condemnation for destruction since The Fall: the title given to the act of eating the tasty pomegranate when God told them not to. Their "sin" was disobeying God after he told them not to touch the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. God put them and all of creation under a curse. Life would be tough. You might break a sweat when you work. Women are going to feel pain in child birth, and stuff like that. So God had to cast them out of the Garden of Eden before they ate from the Tree of Everlasting Life. Can you imagine if Humanity had the Knowledge of Good and Evil?* Why, nobody has the Knowledge of Good and Evil AND lives forever!
This is why I contend that Paul had one of the greatest hypotheses ever to come out of a human mind. It can be simplified into:

Acceptance of the Holy Spirit means eternal life is now.

I have no sense that Now is not eternal life; I have zero reason to think otherwise, but I also have no gospel to preach but rather information to impart. Which, through your benevolent encouragement, just manifested in both the LC thread and on my blog.

While I am an atheist, I am not required to dismiss the philosophy of the Bible; it was the depth of my love of my Gwynnies that sent me into scripture in search of truth. I have found truth; but note that truth can only be a singularity and maximized solely in the individual. No atheist need consider these words for anything more nor less than what they are - information. Wink

(24-11-2011 08:51 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(24-11-2011 08:40 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(24-11-2011 07:57 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(24-11-2011 04:59 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  One of the things that I feel makes me a decent human being is an ability to look beyond myself without the need of a moralizing agency.

Dude, I think that is a prerequisite of being a human being. Wink

Wonderful, if true; to limit "evangelical atheist" to this locality of insanity. Big Grin

Let's see what we can do HoC.
The only entitlement of identity worth fighting for - is Terran. Wink

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24-11-2011, 09:20 PM
RE: Saved by Grace.
(23-11-2011 03:19 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  I have always had great problems with this major Christian doctrine.

Saved from what? The Fall perhaps? ---when we descended with Beelzebub and those others bored with God's wonderous heaven.

Most Christians teach that Jesus/God suffered intense pain nailed to a cross to save the world from the great sin that had developed here on earth. The fact that an omnniscient God would have known in advance about all that future sin is fobbed off by dubious arguments relating to religious "free will".

The Saved by Grace notion teaches that all who accept Jesus as their personal saviour will be saved through their faith and that simply performing good deeds is inadequate. What sort of sick theology is this? By going to Mass one can sin as often as one likes and be forgiven by the priest till the next offense comes up.. Not very positive!

A serious ramification from such fantasies is the fact that any crazy person (talking to god perhaps) will believe that any attrocity they committ ,in gods name, will be forgiven irrespective: so long as they thought they were obeying their master's will.

Motivation by fantasy is an extreme health hazard!

Before I actually become active in this thread, do you want a real answer from a Christian or are you just looking for support for your conclusion? I just don't want to answer in vain.

Also, if you do, could you please ask the question in a succinct way? You hit on several things here, and I want to answer one at a time and be as clear as possible.
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24-11-2011, 11:18 PM (This post was last modified: 24-11-2011 11:31 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Saved by Grace.
(24-11-2011 09:20 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(23-11-2011 03:19 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  I have always had great problems with this major Christian doctrine.

Saved from what? The Fall perhaps? ---when we descended with Beelzebub and those others bored with God's wonderous heaven.

Most Christians teach that Jesus/God suffered intense pain nailed to a cross to save the world from the great sin that had developed here on earth. The fact that an omnniscient God would have known in advance about all that future sin is fobbed off by dubious arguments relating to religious "free will".

The Saved by Grace notion teaches that all who accept Jesus as their personal saviour will be saved through their faith and that simply performing good deeds is inadequate. What sort of sick theology is this? By going to Mass one can sin as often as one likes and be forgiven by the priest till the next offense comes up.. Not very positive!

A serious ramification from such fantasies is the fact that any crazy person (talking to god perhaps) will believe that any attrocity they committ ,in gods name, will be forgiven irrespective: so long as they thought they were obeying their master's will.

Motivation by fantasy is an extreme health hazard!

Before I actually become active in this thread, do you want a real answer from a Christian or are you just looking for support for your conclusion? I just don't want o answer in vain.

Also, if you do, could you please ask the question in a succinct way? You hit on several things here, and I want to answer one at a time and be as clear as possible.

Do that peckerless so as to remain as clear as possible.
(24-11-2011 09:20 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  \Before I actually become active in this thread, do you want a real answer from a Christian or are you just looking for support for your conclusion? I just don't want to answer in vain.

Yup, I'm game with that.

(24-11-2011 09:20 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Also, if you do, could you please ask the question in a succinct way? You hit on several things here, and I want to answer one at a time and be as clear as possible.

Succinctly how can you promise a postmortem preservation of identity when no such mechanism exists.?

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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24-11-2011, 11:51 PM
RE: Saved by Grace.
(24-11-2011 09:20 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(23-11-2011 03:19 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  I have always had great problems with this major Christian doctrine.

Saved from what? The Fall perhaps? ---when we descended with Beelzebub and those others bored with God's wonderous heaven.

Most Christians teach that Jesus/God suffered intense pain nailed to a cross to save the world from the great sin that had developed here on earth. The fact that an omnniscient God would have known in advance about all that future sin is fobbed off by dubious arguments relating to religious "free will".

The Saved by Grace notion teaches that all who accept Jesus as their personal saviour will be saved through their faith and that simply performing good deeds is inadequate. What sort of sick theology is this? By going to Mass one can sin as often as one likes and be forgiven by the priest till the next offense comes up.. Not very positive!

A serious ramification from such fantasies is the fact that any crazy person (talking to god perhaps) will believe that any attrocity they committ ,in gods name, will be forgiven irrespective: so long as they thought they were obeying their master's will.

Motivation by fantasy is an extreme health hazard!

Before I actually become active in this thread, do you want a real answer from a Christian or are you just looking for support for your conclusion? I just don't want to answer in vain.

Also, if you do, could you please ask the question in a succinct way? You hit on several things here, and I want to answer one at a time and be as clear as possible.

(1) Christianity presupposes 'a fall' in the Eden edition and less commonly a fall, or lack of holiness, by those dissidents of some pre existing Heavinly state. I question the bona fides of any original state, other than by coercion forcing the title 'perfect'.

(2) Most Christianity postulates a one life earthly scenario. As many see it our soujourn of this planet is the test for an after life. The old religious free will argument holds that God gave us free will within His regulations which is really an oxymoron. If God was/is omniscient he knows the results of all His actions in advance; hence He knew in advance that man would sin, in accordance with His definitions, and would have to be saved by the torture of His Son. (grace).
Those sinners pre Jesus, seem out in the cold,or perhaps more succinctly in the hot house.

(3)Do you not agree that the forgiving of sin, in Jesus' name by priests could not exacerbate sinning by virtue of this doctrine, which is'nt scriptural anyway (refer Timothy). To me there is a degree of esoteric egoism, probably Paulian, in the emphasis on grace/ belief being paramount in terms of forgiveness. Paul strongly expressed this line to the Galatians.

(4) By pulling ehtereal strings some alleged Christians ....Jones, Koresh , Bakker et al have caused great suffering.

I am aware that there are a great many non religious sources to suffering and my critcisms of the Grace doctrine is not intended to negate much goodness performed by Christians of more liberal and less dogmatic persuasions.

I am not trying to prove myself 'right';this is a term I find quite non productive.
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25-11-2011, 12:17 AM
RE: Saved by Grace.
(24-11-2011 11:51 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  (1) Christianity presupposes 'a fall' in the Eden edition and less commonly a fall, or lack of holiness, by those dissidents of some pre existing Heavinly state. I question the bona fides of any original state, other than by coercion forcing the title 'perfect'.

Sin existed before the "fall" and was on earth. Satan was the first to sin, and since he was on earth during the fall, the earth was already infected. Also, God created sin, and created humans to sin. He never intended them to be perfect; if so, then he's not omnipotent or omniscience. If there was no sin, then the Son would have no purpose or inheritance. Man was created with a fallen nature and was totally depraved in order that the Son could redeem those chosen before the creation of the world.

Quote:(2) Most Christianity postulates a one life earthly scenario. As many see it our soujourn of this planet is the test for an after life. The old religious free will argument holds that God gave us free will within His regulations which is really an oxymoron. If God was/is omniscient he knows the results of all His actions in advance; hence He knew in advance that man would sin, in accordance with His definitions, and would have to be saved by the torture of His Son. (grace).
Those sinners pre Jesus, seem out in the cold,or perhaps more succinctly in the hot house.

There is no such thing as free will. God chooses the ones for salvation and damnation.

Quote:(3)Do you not agree that the forgiving of sin, in Jesus' name by priests could not exacerbate sinning by virtue of this doctrine, which is'nt scriptural anyway (refer Timothy). To me there is a degree of esoteric egoism, probably Paulian, in the emphasis on grace/ belief being paramount in terms of forgiveness. Paul strongly expressed this line to the Galatians.

Only the sins of the elect are forgiven by Christ (before the creation of the world). No one can absolve sin except God - if they can, then God isn't God.

Quote:(4) By pulling ehtereal strings some alleged Christians ....Jones, Koresh , Bakker et al have caused great suffering.

Yes... and scriptures warn of false prophets extensively. Also, you cannot damn an institution for the corruption of a human. Many people have committed atrocities and have cited influences as their reason for this e.g. heavy metal, TV, video games
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25-11-2011, 01:03 AM
RE: Saved by Grace.
(25-11-2011 12:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(24-11-2011 11:51 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  (1) Christianity presupposes 'a fall' in the Eden edition and less commonly a fall, or lack of holiness, by those dissidents of some pre existing Heavinly state. I question the bona fides of any original state, other than by coercion forcing the title 'perfect'.

Sin existed before the "fall" and was on earth. Satan was the first to sin, and since he was on earth during the fall, the earth was already infected. Also, God created sin, and created humans to sin. He never intended them to be perfect; if so, then he's not omnipotent or omniscience. If there was no sin, then the Son would have no purpose or inheritance. Man was created with a fallen nature and was totally depraved in order that the Son could redeem those chosen before the creation of the world.

Quote:(2) Most Christianity postulates a one life earthly scenario. As many see it our soujourn of this planet is the test for an after life. The old religious free will argument holds that God gave us free will within His regulations which is really an oxymoron. If God was/is omniscient he knows the results of all His actions in advance; hence He knew in advance that man would sin, in accordance with His definitions, and would have to be saved by the torture of His Son. (grace).
Those sinners pre Jesus, seem out in the cold,or perhaps more succinctly in the hot house.

There is no such thing as free will. God chooses the ones for salvation and damnation.

Quote:(3)Do you not agree that the forgiving of sin, in Jesus' name by priests could not exacerbate sinning by virtue of this doctrine, which is'nt scriptural anyway (refer Timothy). To me there is a degree of esoteric egoism, probably Paulian, in the emphasis on grace/ belief being paramount in terms of forgiveness. Paul strongly expressed this line to the Galatians.

Only the sins of the elect are forgiven by Christ (before the creation of the world). No one can absolve sin except God - if they can, then God isn't God.

Quote:(4) By pulling ehtereal strings some alleged Christians ....Jones, Koresh , Bakker et al have caused great suffering.

Yes... and scriptures warn of false prophets extensively. Also, you cannot damn an institution for the corruption of a human. Many people have committed atrocities and have cited influences as their reason for this e.g. heavy metal, TV, video games

Your response is strongly Calvinistic.

If you stick with Christianity I hope you find a more liberal and compassionate Church.

Good luck!Smile
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25-11-2011, 01:04 AM
RE: Saved by Grace.
(25-11-2011 12:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  There is no such thing as free will. God chooses the ones for salvation and damnation.

There is no inherent contradiction in your mind with this? That one could refuse the baptism of the Spirit one's entire life - even to the extreme of prosecuting Christians - and still be pre-ordained by God?

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