Saved by Grace.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
25-11-2011, 01:12 AM (This post was last modified: 25-11-2011 01:21 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Saved by Grace.
(25-11-2011 01:04 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(25-11-2011 12:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  There is no such thing as free will. God chooses the ones for salvation and damnation.

There is no inherent contradiction in your mind with this? That one could refuse the baptism of the Spirit one's entire life - even to the extreme of prosecuting Christians - and still be pre-ordained by God?

Nope. As such, Paul. He needed to be Saul before his regeneration so that his testimony would serve as a regeneration of many.
(25-11-2011 01:03 AM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Your response is strongly Calvinistic.

If you stick with Christianity I hope you find a more liberal and compassionate Church.

Good luck!Smile

Thanks Smile

And yes, they are Calvinistic; however, I more closely align myself with Reformed Baptists (even though they are a lot alike).
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-11-2011, 01:40 AM
RE: Saved by Grace.
So it is just God serving God through this regeneration?

Then what matter, Baptist or Atheist?

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-11-2011, 02:58 PM
RE: Saved by Grace.
(25-11-2011 01:40 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  So it is just God serving God through this regeneration?

Then what matter, Baptist or Atheist?

According to Calvin you could be the most decent person alive; unless you were among the original chosen group however, you would burn.
Calvinism is one of the most diabolic doctrines in Christianity.Dodgy
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Mr Woof's post
26-11-2011, 10:07 PM
RE: Saved by Grace.
Sin it may be… But it is quit a bit of fun.

Knowledge, ether carnal or intellectual is the big “Oh no you didn’t”
And if so few people are picked then why the big following?
This piper is choosy and moves the goal posts on a whim.
And as he’s all knowing then your life is planned and set.
Then where is the free will?
Ether god is a myth or free will is.
If free will is a myth then the whole garden eviction was unjustified.
And if god is a myth then the whole “this is a sin, but that’s ok” is just some megalomania from a group wanting control over the masses through fear of the unknown.
And if that needs any proof then why did god in all his foresight make us intelligent inquisitive beings then forbid us from asking why?

And as we’re all ether doomed by god or free from the rot then why do we try and kerb our desirers?
For me it would be a set of “personal morals”, or in other words because it is often the right thing to do without the threat of big post mortem eternal BBQ making me do it.
Or, free will and a knowledge of cause and effect if you wish.

Saved not by grace but by the desire to retain the statist quo.

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Karl's post
28-11-2011, 09:10 AM
RE: Saved by Grace.
(25-11-2011 02:58 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(25-11-2011 01:40 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  So it is just God serving God through this regeneration?

Then what matter, Baptist or Atheist?
Calvinism is one of the most diabolic doctrines in Christianity.Dodgy

I can see that. I mean, I get where you're coming from; however, I just see it differently.

Besides, if I'm going to believe in a God, then I'm going to believe in an all powerful God; not one that can be influenced by humans.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-12-2011, 08:35 AM
 
RE: Saved by Grace.
Quote:Besides, if I'm going to believe in a God, then I'm going to believe in an all powerful God; not one that can be influenced by humans.

if humans can't influence god then what is the point of prayer? what is the point of church? what is the point of anything?

we are basically all rats in god's enormous maze... running around thinking we are in control when in reality he already chose each one's destiny.

why doesn't he just fast forward to the end if everything is already written and everyones destinyt is already chosen? i mean if he chose the 'elect' as you call them before the world began, then why not just take those elect and chill out in heaven? why erven bother with this whole earth experiment? and please don't say so he can murder his son for some sort of mystical inheritance.. because that's just fucked.

why even bother creating the billions of non-elect (and all the non-human animals) just to suffer and have them fry them for eternity? i mean if they had a tiny chance, even a 1 in a million chance, then i could see the point of creating all this stuff and playing this whole game, but the way you describe it it's like a movie that god already knows the ending to... he's just letting it play through even though the actions of everyone playing are totally irrelevant to his plan.

what is really twisted is that there are people out there who will seek god with a sincere heart. muslims and hindus and animists and everyone else. they are doing their very best to please your god in their own way, but their deadly sin is having been born in a place where people don't see god like you do. and for that, regardless of how sincerely they seek him, they will be damned to eternal torture. don't you see how twisted that is? would you treat your children that way?

also... i don't see how a god being all-powerful and also caring about what humans want are mutually exclusive.
Quote this message in a reply
01-12-2011, 08:38 AM (This post was last modified: 01-12-2011 09:09 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Saved by Grace.
(01-12-2011 08:35 AM)paulesungnomo Wrote:  
Quote:Besides, if I'm going to believe in a God, then I'm going to believe in an all powerful God; not one that can be influenced by humans.

if humans can't influence god then what is the point of prayer? what is the point of church? what is the point of anything?

we are basically all rats in god's enormous maze... running around thinking we are in control when in reality he already chose each one's destiny.

why doesn't he just fast forward to the end if everything is already written and everyones destinyt is already chosen? i mean if he chose the 'elect' as you call them before the world began, then why not just take those elect and chill out in heaven? why erven bother with this whole earth experiment? and please don't say so he can murder his son for some sort of mystical inheritance.. because that's just fucked.

why even bother creating the billions of non-elect (and all the non-human animals) just to suffer and have them fry them for eternity? i mean if they had a tiny chance, even a 1 in a million chance, then i could see the point of creating all this stuff and playing this whole game, but the way you describe it it's like a movie that god already knows the ending to... he's just letting it play through even though the actions of everyone playing are totally irrelevant to his plan.

what is really twisted is that there are people out there who will seek god with a sincere heart. muslims and hindus and animists and everyone else. they are doing their very best to please your god in their own way, but their deadly sin is having been born in a place where people don't see god like you do. and for that, regardless of how sincerely they seek him, they will be damned to eternal torture. don't you see how twisted that is? would you treat your children that way?

also... i don't see how a god being all-powerful and also caring about what humans want are mutually exclusive.

Very good questions. Will answer you in a bit.
Quote:if humans can't influence god then what is the point of prayer? what is the point of church? what is the point of anything?

Prayer is essential because it is communication with God. Most people see prayer as “Oh hai god! Heal plz. Can I have this?” Prayer, in essence, isn’t this at all. Yes, our fates our determined, but this line of communication helps us understand God. It allows Him to answer questions. He can reveal to us the “whys”. Prayer is for us. It’s not for God.

We are to pray for others in obedience. Praying for others also allows God to reveal to us how He wants us to be used, what to say, and how to act around others. Ultimately, none of that is our choice; however, prayer is use as an explanation for His purpose and a look into His will.

Church is for spiritual and emotional growth. We are communal, and God understands this. He knows that we need other people. He set up the church for teaching and caring.

Quote:we are basically all rats in god's enormous maze... running around thinking we are in control when in reality he already chose each one's destiny.

That’s one way to look at it. It’s not how I look at it, but I can understand that point of view. I don’t think I’m in control, though.

Quote:why doesn't he just fast forward to the end if everything is already written and everyones destinyt is already chosen? i mean if he chose the 'elect' as you call them before the world began, then why not just take those elect and chill out in heaven?

I would be lying if I told I knew. I don’t know God’s plan. Sorry, not trying to cop-out of an answer, but this is the “faith” part of Christianity that most atheists scoff at. I wish I had a better answer for you.

Quote:why even bother creating the billions of non-elect (and all the non-human animals) just to suffer and have them fry them for eternity? i mean if they had a tiny chance, even a 1 in a million chance, then i could see the point of creating all this stuff and playing this whole game, but the way you describe it it's like a movie that god already knows the ending to... he's just letting it play through even though the actions of everyone playing are totally irrelevant to his plan.

Like I said before, sin and evil have to exist in order for the Son to have a purpose. I see it as grace that I was chosen, but I can definitely empathize with your point of view. I understand how unfair and demented this can seem.

Quote:what is really twisted is that there are people out there who will seek god with a sincere heart. muslims and hindus and animists and everyone else. they are doing their very best to please your god in their own way, but their deadly sin is having been born in a place where people don't see god like you do. and for that, regardless of how sincerely they seek him, they will be damned to eternal torture. don't you see how twisted that is? would you treat your children that way?

No, I do see it. And, their salvation is not on my hands. Their salvation is up to God. I believe what I believe, and while I’m stalwart in it, I don’t condemn anyone else for believing differently.

And no, I wouldn’t treat my child like that, but I’m also not sovereign. God is 100% just, loving, gracious, jealous, wrathful, and faithful. As a human, I would have prejudice to certain things (my child for instance). Meaning, if my son did something horrible that warranted the death penalty, I would still defend him as best I could to keep him from dying because I love him and he is my son. I would throw justice to the side for love and grace. God doesn’t do that.

Quote:also... i don't see how a god being all-powerful and also caring about what humans want are mutually exclusive.

Because we are His Son’s inheritance.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-12-2011, 09:53 AM
 
RE: Saved by Grace.
Quote: I understand how unfair and demented this can seem.

yes... it really does seem demented.

Quote:God is 100% just, loving, gracious, jealous, wrathful, and faithful.

Quote: I would throw justice to the side for love and grace. God doesn’t do that.

so wait a second.... god is 100% just, gracious, and faithful, and yet he will damn billions who had no ability to save themselves because of some legalistic rule that he himself invented? where is the love? where is the grace? if his love and grace is limited to only a few, then how can you claim he is 100% loving? thats total nonsense. how can a being that is 100% loving chose to torture 90% of his creation? 10% loving maybe...

i would think it much more honest if calvinists claimed that god in fact did not love the people that he damned before they born... because there is no argument you can make (and i think you know this) that proves that someone who would create a sentient being for the sole purpose of being tortured for eternity in fact *loves* that being. that is just silly....

so how can he bee 100% loving and graceful when he only chooses to extend his grace to maybe 10% (and thats overestimating it) of the things he creates?

as for being 100% wrathful... well that makes no sense at all when added in with the positive traits you also claimed he is 100% of.

you are either ALL loving, or you are ALL wrathful... you can't be both. this reminds me of the early church father's nonsense about jesus being 100% god and 100% man... are christians really that bad at math?

Quote:Like I said before, sin and evil have to exist in order for the Son to have a purpose

hmmm.... so you are telling me that all powerful, omnipresent, omibenevolent being can't give purpose to his son's life without creating a sick rigged game in which 90% are loosers before they even play?

what kind of purpose is that? why not have him come down to earth and help people out? share his wisdom? chill out with his creations in the garden of eden and play donkey king? is creating something beautiful not purpose enough? why did he have to fuck it up? just so his son could die?

do you not see the circular reasoning there?

"god created sin so that his son could die and get rid of sin"

why not just leave sin out in the first place? and this brings me to the point that is most important to me.... god seems to think that pain and death and damnation are the only way to go... why did jesus have to die? why not just ask us to sing a song in order to be forgiven for the things that GOD MADE IT OUR NATURE TO DO! why kill his own kid?

a being who could have created any paradigm he wanted, and chose to create one where the inoccent die for the sins of the guilty (whether its animals or jesus) is not 100% just.

a being who will creates billions of souls for the sole purspose of being tortured for eternity is not 100% loving or 100% graceful.

the one place i will agree is that if we go with your definition on god, he CERTAINLY is 100% wrathful.
Quote this message in a reply
01-12-2011, 10:44 AM
RE: Saved by Grace.
(01-12-2011 08:38 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(01-12-2011 08:35 AM)paulesungnomo Wrote:  
Quote:Besides, if I'm going to believe in a God, then I'm going to believe in an all powerful God; not one that can be influenced by humans.

if humans can't influence god then what is the point of prayer? what is the point of church? what is the point of anything?

we are basically all rats in god's enormous maze... running around thinking we are in control when in reality he already chose each one's destiny.

why doesn't he just fast forward to the end if everything is already written and everyones destinyt is already chosen? i mean if he chose the 'elect' as you call them before the world began, then why not just take those elect and chill out in heaven? why erven bother with this whole earth experiment? and please don't say so he can murder his son for some sort of mystical inheritance.. because that's just fucked.

why even bother creating the billions of non-elect (and all the non-human animals) just to suffer and have them fry them for eternity? i mean if they had a tiny chance, even a 1 in a million chance, then i could see the point of creating all this stuff and playing this whole game, but the way you describe it it's like a movie that god already knows the ending to... he's just letting it play through even though the actions of everyone playing are totally irrelevant to his plan.

what is really twisted is that there are people out there who will seek god with a sincere heart. muslims and hindus and animists and everyone else. they are doing their very best to please your god in their own way, but their deadly sin is having been born in a place where people don't see god like you do. and for that, regardless of how sincerely they seek him, they will be damned to eternal torture. don't you see how twisted that is? would you treat your children that way?

also... i don't see how a god being all-powerful and also caring about what humans want are mutually exclusive.

Very good questions. Will answer you in a bit.
Quote:if humans can't influence god then what is the point of prayer? what is the point of church? what is the point of anything?

Prayer is essential because it is communication with God. Most people see prayer as “Oh hai god! Heal plz. Can I have this?” Prayer, in essence, isn’t this at all. Yes, our fates our determined, but this line of communication helps us understand God. It allows Him to answer questions. He can reveal to us the “whys”. Prayer is for us. It’s not for God.

We are to pray for others in obedience. Praying for others also allows God to reveal to us how He wants us to be used, what to say, and how to act around others. Ultimately, none of that is our choice; however, prayer is use as an explanation for His purpose and a look into His will.

Church is for spiritual and emotional growth. We are communal, and God understands this. He knows that we need other people. He set up the church for teaching and caring.

Quote:we are basically all rats in god's enormous maze... running around thinking we are in control when in reality he already chose each one's destiny.

That’s one way to look at it. It’s not how I look at it, but I can understand that point of view. I don’t think I’m in control, though.

Quote:why doesn't he just fast forward to the end if everything is already written and everyones destinyt is already chosen? i mean if he chose the 'elect' as you call them before the world began, then why not just take those elect and chill out in heaven?

I would be lying if I told I knew. I don’t know God’s plan. Sorry, not trying to cop-out of an answer, but this is the “faith” part of Christianity that most atheists scoff at. I wish I had a better answer for you.

Quote:why even bother creating the billions of non-elect (and all the non-human animals) just to suffer and have them fry them for eternity? i mean if they had a tiny chance, even a 1 in a million chance, then i could see the point of creating all this stuff and playing this whole game, but the way you describe it it's like a movie that god already knows the ending to... he's just letting it play through even though the actions of everyone playing are totally irrelevant to his plan.

Like I said before, sin and evil have to exist in order for the Son to have a purpose. I see it as grace that I was chosen, but I can definitely empathize with your point of view. I understand how unfair and demented this can seem.

Quote:what is really twisted is that there are people out there who will seek god with a sincere heart. muslims and hindus and animists and everyone else. they are doing their very best to please your god in their own way, but their deadly sin is having been born in a place where people don't see god like you do. and for that, regardless of how sincerely they seek him, they will be damned to eternal torture. don't you see how twisted that is? would you treat your children that way?

No, I do see it. And, their salvation is not on my hands. Their salvation is up to God. I believe what I believe, and while I’m stalwart in it, I don’t condemn anyone else for believing differently.

And no, I wouldn’t treat my child like that, but I’m also not sovereign. God is 100% just, loving, gracious, jealous, wrathful, and faithful. As a human, I would have prejudice to certain things (my child for instance). Meaning, if my son did something horrible that warranted the death penalty, I would still defend him as best I could to keep him from dying because I love him and he is my son. I would throw justice to the side for love and grace. God doesn’t do that.

Quote:also... i don't see how a god being all-powerful and also caring about what humans want are mutually exclusive.

Because we are His Son’s inheritance.

Wow. And the believers call atheism nihilistic.
Your theology paints our lives as truly pointless, just a time to suffer a bit before going to the big suffering, that big old lake of fire.

And your statements for believing it are a mixture of circular reasoning and incoherence. While some here admire your honesty, that's like admiring Stalin's honesty.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-12-2011, 10:53 AM
RE: Saved by Grace.
(01-12-2011 08:38 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Like I said before, sin and evil have to exist in order for the Son to have a purpose. I see it as grace that I was chosen, but I can definitely empathize with your point of view. I understand how unfair and demented this can seem.

Thar' she blows, a thing of beauty, right there.If this is your sincere identifier, the error is not yours. Wink

But thanks for the assist. Anybody ask me, WTF Calvin? ^There it is .

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: