Saved by Grace.
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01-12-2011, 01:31 PM
RE: Saved by Grace.
Quote:hmmm.... so you are telling me that all powerful, omnipresent, omibenevolent being can't give purpose to his son's life without creating a sick rigged game in which 90% are loosers before they even play?

Again, without sin Jesus’ sacrifice was meaningless. I suppose He could’ve created something differently, but that’s not what He did. The binding of this belief is that God’s omniscience is infinite and beyond our common understanding. Especially when dealing with the fairness and the morality of it.

Quote:what kind of purpose is that? why not have him come down to earth and help people out? share his wisdom? chill out with his creations in the garden of eden and play donkey king? is creating something beautiful not purpose enough? why did he have to fuck it up? just so his son could die?

As I said earlier, I couldn’t even pretend to know the complexity and vastness of His plan. This relates back to the faith part.

Quote:do you not see the circular reasoning there?

Yes, I do. To me, though, it’s linear because I have the faith that God is all powerful and only His purpose matters.

Quote:"god created sin so that his son could die and get rid of sin"

why not just leave sin out in the first place? and this brings me to the point that is most important to me.... god seems to think that pain and death and damnation are the only way to go... why did jesus have to die? why not just ask us to sing a song in order to be forgiven for the things that GOD MADE IT OUR NATURE TO DO! why kill his own kid?

Aforementioned, I can’t answer that. I don’t know why God planned it that way. He just did. One of my favorite quotes is from The Mothman Prophecies. The main character was asking a doctor if this alien creature was so advanced then why doesn’t he just explain himself to us. The doctor replied, “You’re more advanced than a cockroach, but have you ever tried to explain yourself to one?”

Quote:a being who could have created any paradigm he wanted, and chose to create one where the inoccent die for the sins of the guilty (whether its animals or jesus) is not 100% just.

a being who will creates billions of souls for the sole purspose of being tortured for eternity is not 100% loving or 100% graceful.

the one place i will agree is that if we go with your definition on god, he CERTAINLY is 100% wrathful.

Lol, I know. The math seems crazy, but it’s not to be taken literally. When I say He 100% of all of these attributes, I don’t mean individually. I guess the best way to explain it is imagine if there was a word that meant just, gracious, etc. He is 100% of this word. This may seem to contradict our human parameters of personality and traits, but God isn’t limited to human parameters.

Does this make sense? If not I will try harder to explain it.

Quote:Wow. And the believers call atheism nihilistic.
Your theology paints our lives as truly pointless, just a time to suffer a bit before going to the big suffering, that big old lake of fire.

And your statements for believing it are a mixture of circular reasoning and incoherence. While some here admire your honesty, that's like admiring Stalin's honesty.

Hopefully I answered this with my response to Paul. I’ll reiterate that no, our lives aren’t pointless because they give a reason for Jesus.

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01-12-2011, 04:26 PM
 
RE: Saved by Grace.
ok that's cool. thanks for putting in the time to answer.

im sure you can't have helped but notice that you answered every one of my questions with either special pleading or an appeal to faith though, right?

does it not bother you that the only way you can make sense of your worldview is saying 'im a tiny cockroach and god can step on me if he wants' and 'i have faith'?

you strike me as a smart guy... tell me this... would you use that kind of reasoning in ANY other area of life other than your religion? buying a used car or trying to undertsand a task at work? i think not. im sure you apply rigorous standards of evidence and skeptisism when faced with ANYthing but talking about god.

does the inconsistency not bother you?
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01-12-2011, 04:31 PM
RE: Saved by Grace.
(01-12-2011 01:31 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
Quote:hmmm.... so you are telling me that all powerful, omnipresent, omibenevolent being can't give purpose to his son's life without creating a sick rigged game in which 90% are loosers before they even play?

Again, without sin Jesus’ sacrifice was meaningless. I suppose He could’ve created something differently, but that’s not what He did. The binding of this belief is that God’s omniscience is infinite and beyond our common understanding. Especially when dealing with the fairness and the morality of it.

Quote:what kind of purpose is that? why not have him come down to earth and help people out? share his wisdom? chill out with his creations in the garden of eden and play donkey king? is creating something beautiful not purpose enough? why did he have to fuck it up? just so his son could die?

As I said earlier, I couldn’t even pretend to know the complexity and vastness of His plan. This relates back to the faith part.

Quote:do you not see the circular reasoning there?

Yes, I do. To me, though, it’s linear because I have the faith that God is all powerful and only His purpose matters.

Quote:"god created sin so that his son could die and get rid of sin"

why not just leave sin out in the first place? and this brings me to the point that is most important to me.... god seems to think that pain and death and damnation are the only way to go... why did jesus have to die? why not just ask us to sing a song in order to be forgiven for the things that GOD MADE IT OUR NATURE TO DO! why kill his own kid?

Aforementioned, I can’t answer that. I don’t know why God planned it that way. He just did. One of my favorite quotes is from The Mothman Prophecies. The main character was asking a doctor if this alien creature was so advanced then why doesn’t he just explain himself to us. The doctor replied, “You’re more advanced than a cockroach, but have you ever tried to explain yourself to one?”

Quote:a being who could have created any paradigm he wanted, and chose to create one where the inoccent die for the sins of the guilty (whether its animals or jesus) is not 100% just.

a being who will creates billions of souls for the sole purspose of being tortured for eternity is not 100% loving or 100% graceful.

the one place i will agree is that if we go with your definition on god, he CERTAINLY is 100% wrathful.

Lol, I know. The math seems crazy, but it’s not to be taken literally. When I say He 100% of all of these attributes, I don’t mean individually. I guess the best way to explain it is imagine if there was a word that meant just, gracious, etc. He is 100% of this word. This may seem to contradict our human parameters of personality and traits, but God isn’t limited to human parameters.

Does this make sense? If not I will try harder to explain it.

Quote:Wow. And the believers call atheism nihilistic.
Your theology paints our lives as truly pointless, just a time to suffer a bit before going to the big suffering, that big old lake of fire.

And your statements for believing it are a mixture of circular reasoning and incoherence. While some here admire your honesty, that's like admiring Stalin's honesty.

Hopefully I answered this with my response to Paul. I’ll reiterate that no, our lives aren’t pointless because they give a reason for Jesus.
Your ad fidem arguments based on an ineffable power are an insult to any decency inherent in more othodox Christianity.

As finite beings our understanding is very largely based on logic, not evil and nebulous speculations making up some insane, cruel cosmic pantomime as posited by you.

Quite frankly I think you beleive what you preach about as much as those who choose to correspond with you. John Paul Sartre knew what he was talking about when he claimed "hell is other people". Power, if total power is possible ,is in no way synonymous with love or morality unless one resorts to the fallacious argumentum ad ignoratum line of reasoning popular with your ilk.[/i].
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01-12-2011, 04:35 PM
RE: Saved by Grace.
(01-12-2011 04:26 PM)paulesungnomo Wrote:  ok that's cool. thanks for putting in the time to answer.

im sure you can't have helped but notice that you answered every one of my questions with either special pleading or an appeal to faith though, right?

does it not bother you that the only way you can make sense of your worldview is saying 'im a tiny cockroach and god can step on me if he wants' and 'i have faith'?

you strike me as a smart guy... tell me this... would you use that kind of reasoning in ANY other area of life other than your religion? buying a used car or trying to undertsand a task at work? i think not. im sure you apply rigorous standards of evidence and skeptisism when faced with ANYthing but talking about god.

does the inconsistency not bother you?

No, I do not use that reasoning anywhere else. Yes, it did, at one time, bother me. Especially, when I didn't know why I suddenly believed in God. It was frustrating because my views of God and religion had previously been build on logic and not faith.

Out of nowhere, that belief literally flipped. I realize that my appeals to your logic are based on my faith, and logically, don't make sense. Trust me, I am completely aware of that; however, I'm also aware that my faith in God is there. It's something I can't explain logically. It's something that I don't expect others to understand. It is something that is me, though. God changed me, and I had no control over that.

Again, sorry for the crappy answers : /

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01-12-2011, 04:50 PM
 
RE: Saved by Grace.
thats ok dude. i have much more respect for someone who recognizes the inconsistency and goofballness of it all and simply stands by their faith. you must have had a hell of an epiphany.

at least you are honest about your reasons and what you think. most people are kindof embarrased of their faith and will try to drag out a bunch of creationist or other complete non-sense to try to justify it. you cut through all that and get to the real reason you believe. i was wrong when i challenged you at first to tell us 'why you really believe' but i think you know how much of a rarity someone who fully embraces the faith part of christianity is.

i wanted to ask (and this is a subject very close to my heart) where animals fit into your world view. i dont eat animals or otherwise participate in their killing, and my reason is that i think animals are far more noble and worthy of this planet than people are. why do you think your god made all these creatures and gave them such complex emotions and lives? are they in the same boat as the pre-damned humans, or do they at least get some tiny scrap of mercy from your god?

i read you are a thesitic evolutionist and i was wondering about that. if god helped guide evolution and guided us from being microbes to being people, how does he feel about the ones in between? do they have any value at all to him? it bothers me that christianity has engendered such a disregard for all non-human life. i mean... people will bomb clinics to save a zygote with the IQ of a tadpole, but they have no problem with a chimp with complex thoughts and feelings (far more complex than some humnas) being vivisected.

so where does the line get drawn? there is no line of intelligence you can draw between humans and apes that does not put some humans (mental retardation etc) squarely in the ape camp. so are humans special simply by virtue of being human, or did your god grant souls to other smart animals like dolphins, octopi and the great apes? i mean, someone who is seriously retarded is less capable of finding god than a monkey or a dolphin is... so do they get a chance, or do they get skrewed as well?
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01-12-2011, 04:53 PM (This post was last modified: 01-12-2011 05:26 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Saved by Grace.
(01-12-2011 04:50 PM)paulesungnomo Wrote:  thats ok dude. i have much more respect for someone who recognizes the inconsistency and goofballness of it all and simply stands by their faith. you must have had a hell of an epiphany.

at least you are honest about your reasons and what you think. most people are kindof embarrased of their faith and will try to drag out a bunch of creationist or other complete non-sense to try to justify it. you cut through all that and get to the real reason you believe. i was wrong when i challenged you at first to tell us 'why you really believe' but i think you know how much of a rarity someone who fully embraces the faith part of christianity is.

i wanted to ask (and this is a subject very close to my heart) where animals fit into your world view. i dont eat animals or otherwise participate in their killing, and my reason is that i think animals are far more noble and worthy of this planet than people are. why do you think your god made all these creatures and gave them such complex emotions and lives? are they in the same boat as the pre-damned humans, or do they at least get some tiny scrap of mercy from your god?

i read you are a thesitic evolutionist and i was wondering about that. if god helped guide evolution and guided us from being microbes to being people, how does he feel about the ones in between? do they have any value at all to him? it bothers me that christianity has engendered such a disregard for all non-human life. i mean... people will bomb clinics to save a zygote with the IQ of a tadpole, but they have no problem with a chimp with complex thoughts and feelings (far more complex than some humnas) being vivisected.

so where does the line get drawn? there is no line of intelligence you can draw between humans and apes that does not put some humans (mental retardation etc) squarely in the ape camp. so are humans special simply by virtue of being human, or did your god grant souls to other smart animals like dolphins, octopi and the great apes? i mean, someone who is seriously retarded is less capable of finding god than a monkey or a dolphin is... so do they get a chance, or do they get skrewed as well?

Man, you ask some good questions. Heh, working on answering them.
Quote:thats ok dude. i have much more respect for someone who recognizes the inconsistency and goofballness of it all and simply stands by their faith. you must have had a hell of an epiphany.

As you previously said, respect is earned, not given. Lying, skirting topics, and making crap up is not a good way to earn respect. And… it was.

Quote:at least you are honest about your reasons and what you think. most people are kindof embarrased of their faith and will try to drag out a bunch of creationist or other complete non-sense to try to justify it. you cut through all that and get to the real reason you believe. i was wrong when i challenged you at first to tell us 'why you really believe' but i think you know how much of a rarity someone who fully embraces the faith part of christianity is.

I do appreciate that, but I understand why you did it. Challenging someone aggressively is one of the best ways to cut the crap.

Quote:i wanted to ask (and this is a subject very close to my heart) where animals fit into your world view. i dont eat animals or otherwise participate in their killing, and my reason is that i think animals are far more noble and worthy of this planet than people are. why do you think your god made all these creatures and gave them such complex emotions and lives? are they in the same boat as the pre-damned humans, or do they at least get some tiny scrap of mercy from your god?

While I don’t share your views on eating animals, I do love them and enjoy them. Animals fit into my world view as exactly what they are: herbivores, omnivores, or carnivores. Animals need to eat the food that they are biologically wired to eat.

This doesn’t make carnivores evil creatures. They have no knowledge of good and evil. They don’t know what’s right or wrong. However, this doesn’t mean that animals don’t have morals. As I’ve stated in another thread, morals are created from empathy. This primal trait is obvious in animals which are capable of realizing empathy. My belief is that God gave humans dominion over the animals – to care for them and to use them for food. I believe humans were God’s chosen creatures for His purpose and elevated to this point.

Quote:i read you are a thesitic evolutionist and i was wondering about that. if god helped guide evolution and guided us from being microbes to being people, how does he feel about the ones in between? do they have any value at all to him? it bothers me that christianity has engendered such a disregard for all non-human life. i mean... people will bomb clinics to save a zygote with the IQ of a tadpole, but they have no problem with a chimp with complex thoughts and feelings (far more complex than some humnas) being vivisected.

Yes, I believe in theistic evolution… more or less. I believe that there was a point in human evolution where God chose to imprint his image on us. In Genesis this is shown in the “creating from dust” which in the poetic language of that time meant “creating new” not “creating something new”. After God imprinted his image on this human creature, there was a realization of good and evil (the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil). This fundamentally changed the human animal and made it into a human being: a creature elevated above all other earthly creatures. Since we were his prize creation (after all, we would serve as the vessel for his son), he gave us authority over the earth and its other inhabitants.

Because we have the knowledge of good and evil, we are now able to do both good and both evil. This is in regards to your question of killing animals of higher intelligence. We are meant to respect and extol his creations, but we are also meant to reign over them. Since we can do evil, we can kill other animals with the intent to be cruel. Animals without the knowledge of good and evil are not capable of this. Consequently, it is because of this, this knowledge, that we are higher than other creatures. It’s the simple realization that we can or cannot.

Quote:so where does the line get drawn? there is no line of intelligence you can draw between humans and apes that does not put some humans (mental retardation etc) squarely in the ape camp. so are humans special simply by virtue of being human, or did your god grant souls to other smart animals like dolphins, octopi and the great apes? i mean, someone who is seriously retarded is less capable of finding god than a monkey or a dolphin is... so do they get a chance, or do they get skrewed as well?

Yes, it is virtue of them being born human. Like I said, humans were the fortunate creatures that God chose to imprint his image on. When that happened, all humanity was granted a soul. This is both a blessing and a curse; as a soul has to face eternity.

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01-12-2011, 09:48 PM
RE: Saved by Grace.
(24-11-2011 07:57 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(24-11-2011 04:59 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  One of the things that I feel makes me a decent human being is an ability to look beyond myself without the need of a moralizing agency.

Dude, I think that is a prerequisite of being a human being. Wink

(24-11-2011 06:25 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  No meds. If anything, it is a continuously decreasing intake of my "self-proscribed medication" adding to clarity.

Girly's on the increasing dosage side, between the two of us think we got it covered.
Hey does your guy bulk bill? Shucks, I forgot I'm in Australia.Confused
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01-12-2011, 10:27 PM (This post was last modified: 01-12-2011 11:35 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Saved by Grace.
(01-12-2011 09:48 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Hey does your guy bulk bill? Shucks, I forgot I'm in Australia.Confused

My guy's the corner liquor store, Mr. Woof. I know you got them in Australia. Booze is all we need, it'll do the trick.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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02-12-2011, 05:54 PM
 
RE: Saved by Grace.
Quote:Animals need to eat the food that they are biologically wired to eat.

this is true... but i think you are looking at it in a very one-dimensional way. just because it's 'natural' does not make it right. later on in your post you talk about how special and different humans are, but here you say 'oops! its out nature' and leave it at that. not convincing at all.

as creatures who can eat and thrive on both sentient beings who suffer and non-sentient beings who do not, i think it is quite simple for us (remember what you said about 'knowlege of good and evil?) to determine which of the two is the path that causes a reduction of pain and harm in a world already full of it. i wont go into the health benefits too much, but a diet free of meat has been proven to be much more healthy than a carnivorous one.

going back to your naturalistic explanation, if you do a bit of research you will see it falls flat. humans are the only carnivores who have to alter the chemical stucture of all meat (by cooking it) just to be able to eat it without a high risk of serious illness.

but this is the real problem i have with what you are saying, and the reason i want you to honestly think about this

don't christian's believe that out human nature is evil, something to be overcome and fought against? if so, then how can you try so hard to resist parts of your nature like sexual 'immorality' that are victimless and quite harmless, and at the same time embrace a part of your 'evil' human nature that causes so much uneccesary suffering and misery? i find it very very sad that christians are so hellbent on overcoming some parts of their nature, but when another part is pleasurable, or they are used to it, they have no problem embracing it and saying 'oh well... it's just nature'.

Quote:....We are meant to respect and extol his creations, but we are also meant to reign over them. ...

this makes me really sad. so you think that humans were granted 'dominion' by god and that this dominion allows us to do what we please with other creatures with complete impunity as far as he is concerned. is any attrocity commited towards an animal a 'sin' in god's book?

the fact that your book of rules goes to such agonizing length to define moronic legalisms like not wearing mixed cloth and what day of the week you can't work on, and did not even dedicate a single paragraph to define rules about how we treat our fellow creatures is in my mind of your religion's greates failings.

the fact that your god defined petty 'sins' based on human nature and then commanded humans to kill animals to attone for their own crimes is another.

i find it very unfortunate that christians have gone to such lengths to supress parts of thier nature like their sexuality in the name of their god, but when faced with another part that causes so much harm to so many innocent creatures, they simply go with the flow.

if your god would have spent a few minutes and told one of his prophets to respect their fellow creatures instead of rambling on for hours about legalistic rules that he planeed on overturning later on anyway i might have a shred of respect for him, but the fact that he will cast a human into hell for his thoughts and beliefs and ignore the unspeakable real life cruelty of another towards animals is unforgivable.
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03-12-2011, 01:19 AM
RE: Saved by Grace.
What've just came into my mind, and hopefully is connected to this thread (don't want to create another one just for this):

God gave us free will, right? This way there is a possibility for us to sin. As far as I know, there will be no sin in heaven, is that right with what christianity says? Does it mean that people who will go to heaven lose their free will, so there will be no sin in heaven, or is there a way for god to make it possible to for people to not sin even though they have free will? If there is such possibility, why don't make it this way in the first place?

Hope that makes sense..
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