Scared to stop believing
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25-10-2012, 09:00 PM
RE: Scared to stop believing
(25-10-2012 08:58 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(25-10-2012 08:54 PM)onedream Wrote:  Well...here's a question:

It's about evolution. Creationists claim there are no "transitional species."

You know...species that show a transition from one species to another; Macro Evolution.

What say y'all?
Talkorigins has debunked pretty much every Creationist claim ever made.

I'll check it out. Thanks!
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25-10-2012, 09:03 PM
RE: Scared to stop believing
(25-10-2012 08:46 PM)onedream Wrote:  
(25-10-2012 03:34 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  Since Christianity is the basis of your current livelihood, have you considered contacting The Clergy Project?

http://clergyproject.org/

Seth Recommended it to me. But my understanding is that it's for people who are already non-believers. I guess you could call me "A closet agnostic." But I'm on the fence.

It's for clergy who are either already out of the ministry because they've become non-believers or more importantly for those who are still in the ministry and feel stuck because the only livelihood they've ever had was in ministry. They can't just give up the paycheck and medical insurance without a well-planned exit strategy.

They do screen members ahead of time to make sure you're not a rogue Christian trying to out the Atheist Clergy. I'm not really sure how broadly they interpret "ministry" to include broadcasting? Maybe. It would be tough for you to leave your livelihood behind as well.

I joined the same time I joined here, but frankly I found tons more support here, but I had also been out of the ministry for about 8 years before I could say the "A" word in labeling myself.

There's another great resource called http://recoveringfromreligion.org/. I had the opportunity to meet and speak with Jerry DeWitt, a Pentecostal minister for 25 years and about a year ago he became an atheist. He bounced by quickly by becoming the director of that website. You might find some helpful thoughts there, and Jerry is also willing to talk so you might consider getting in touch with him. They have some forums too, but I didn't find them very active and again, I had already my home here.

Without revealing your real identity too much, what kind of broadcaster are you? Do you spin Jesus Music or do you have a talk show? You're not James Dobson are you? Evil_monster

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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25-10-2012, 09:29 PM
RE: Scared to stop believing
(25-10-2012 09:03 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(25-10-2012 08:46 PM)onedream Wrote:  Seth Recommended it to me. But my understanding is that it's for people who are already non-believers. I guess you could call me "A closet agnostic." But I'm on the fence.

It's for clergy who are either already out of the ministry because they've become non-believers or more importantly for those who are still in the ministry and feel stuck because the only livelihood they've ever had was in ministry. They can't just give up the paycheck and medical insurance without a well-planned exit strategy.

They do screen members ahead of time to make sure you're not a rogue Christian trying to out the Atheist Clergy. I'm not really sure how broadly they interpret "ministry" to include broadcasting? Maybe. It would be tough for you to leave your livelihood behind as well.

I joined the same time I joined here, but frankly I found tons more support here, but I had also been out of the ministry for about 8 years before I could say the "A" word in labeling myself.

There's another great resource called http://recoveringfromreligion.org/. I had the opportunity to meet and speak with Jerry DeWitt, a Pentecostal minister for 25 years and about a year ago he became an atheist. He bounced by quickly by becoming the director of that website. You might find some helpful thoughts there, and Jerry is also willing to talk so you might consider getting in touch with him. They have some forums too, but I didn't find them very active and again, I had already my home here.

Without revealing your real identity too much, what kind of broadcaster are you? Do you spin Jesus Music or do you have a talk show? You're not James Dobson are you? Evil_monster

Thanks for that. I'll check it out.

I'm a CCM DJ. I host a Contemporary Christian Pop music show. I started in CCM radio a week out of high school. And Seth was my first Program Director. We've been friends for almost 20 years. Next year will be 20. He was 24 when I met him. And I was 18. I did overnights on the station and he hosted mornings.

He gave me a lot of great radio advice. And we spent LOTS of time with our group of Christian friends at parties and concerts...going backstage to hang with artists, doing station remotes...etc. I consider him a radio mentor. And I have always kind of idolized him like a big brother.

He and I have been in touch through this process. He's been helpful. But I don't want to monopolize all his time. So I came here.
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25-10-2012, 09:41 PM
RE: Scared to stop believing
(25-10-2012 08:54 PM)onedream Wrote:  
(25-10-2012 08:48 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Are there any questions you want to have answered before making your decision? If so, ask away. Sleepy

Well...here's a question:

It's about evolution. Creationists claim there are no "transitional species."

You know...species that show a transition from one species to another; Macro Evolution.

What say y'all?

Okay. FIRST of all, here, have an obligatory, nigh-automatic caveat that evolutionary origin of species has virtually nothing to do with atheism. You can subscribe to neither, either, or both, with no inherent contradiction. A pet peeve for many atheists is Christians who try to convert them by cutting down evolutionary origin, because it has very, very little to do with their atheism, but they're still tempted into a debate on the subject because geez, 90% of those arguments are crap. (Then again, 90% of everything is crap.) For that matter, evolutionary origin and creationism aren't contradictory; I've lost count of the number of theists I know who subscribe to evolutionary origin, either as a tool God used to implement creation or something that happened after creation. There, done with caveats, phew.

The "Transitional Species" trick is a bit like Xeno's paradox of the arrow. It goes a bit like this:

1) Paleontologists discover two species in the fossil record, A and B, and theorize that A is the ancestor of B.
2) The evolution-denier says, HA! You can't prove it, because you don't have a transitional species linking A and B! Nyeh!
3) Some years or decades later, paleontologists stumble over a fossil of a new species that looks like it fits the bill. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_%28fossil%29 ) They theorize that it is the missing link in question, and that A is the ancestor of T which is the ancestor of B. (They also spend a lot of time sniping at each other on the subject. Peer review is like that.)
4) The evolution-denier says, HA! You can't prove it, because you don't have a transitional species linking A to T OR T to B! Nyeh!

The problem is that no matter how complete the fossil record (and it's very, very incomplete, simply because the nature of the fossilization process only preserves a tiny sampling of previous species), the evolution-denier can simply apply this argument over, and over, and over, and over, REGARDLESS of the truth of the situation. And the fact that they can apply this argument regardless of the truth the biggest red flag you can raise that it isn't really a good counterargument.

(It would be different, of course, if the fossil record was more complete, and we could damn well EXPECT there to be a transitional species on record. Then the absence would be significant and cause for concern. But as is, the gaps in the record are entirely consistent with our understanding of how the world works.)

I think one of the fundamental flaws in the way science's main opponents view science is that they don't understand that science is a process or path, leading from ignorant to less-ignorant and from poor understanding to better understanding. Simply pointing out holes in what we presently know doesn't debunk this process. Indeed, anyone who understands science expects those holes to be there in the first place. That's the hole point. *rimshot*

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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25-10-2012, 09:55 PM
RE: Scared to stop believing
(25-10-2012 08:54 PM)onedream Wrote:  Creationists claim there are no "transitional species."

You know...species that show a transition from one species to another; Macro Evolution.

What say y'all?

I would say that most creationist don't understand evolution because they either aren't able (and usually aren't willing to TRY) to wrap their brains around the idea of "deep time".

ALL evolution is micro-evolution. Once the first clusters of chemicals started themselves, and natural selection started weeding out the versions that didn't work...the rest was inevitable. All it took was enough TIME.

If you haven't seen them, watch Aron Ra's videos about evolution on YouTube. I think they're some of the best, most concise videos you'll find on the subject.
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25-10-2012, 10:14 PM
RE: Scared to stop believing
Your doubts could actually help you out in your broadcasting profession. IMO, most Christians are dealing with these same doubts and questions on a daily basis. Their religion dissuades them from asking questions and Jesus is mute to their prayers (as usual), so they have nowhere to turn for answers. A fellow theist sharing his doubt over the air might comfort them and let them know that they're not alone. Do you take call-in's? You and your listeners can work out your doubts together like a telephone alcoholics anonymous. You identify yourself (Hello, I'm [insert name] and I'm a doubting theist) and then come together for group therapy.

It's a shame that you have to hide your online religious pursuits like you're browsing porn. I would recommend coming out to the family little by little. Just let them know that you have doubts about the Bible and if they have no answers to stem those doubts, they shouldn't be shocked when you slowly spiral into hard drug use and your morals are bled out with the sacrificial animals to appease Satan, our Lord and Master. You know... atheism.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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25-10-2012, 11:07 PM
RE: Scared to stop believing
(25-10-2012 10:14 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Your doubts could actually help you out in your broadcasting profession. IMO, most Christians are dealing with these same doubts and questions on a daily basis. Their religion dissuades them from asking questions and Jesus is mute to their prayers (as usual), so they have nowhere to turn for answers. A fellow theist sharing his doubt over the air might comfort them and let them know that they're not alone. Do you take call-in's? You and your listeners can work out your doubts together like a telephone alcoholics anonymous. You identify yourself (Hello, I'm [insert name] and I'm a doubting theist) and then come together for group therapy.

It's a shame that you have to hide your online religious pursuits like you're browsing porn. I would recommend coming out to the family little by little. Just let them know that you have doubts about the Bible and if they have no answers to stem those doubts, they shouldn't be shocked when you slowly spiral into hard drug use and your morals are bled out with the sacrificial animals to appease Satan, our Lord and Master. You know... atheism.

.... it probably doesn't need to be said, but just in case. All these comments about devil's brew and Satanism are jokes. The absurdity of the claim that atheists are Satanists is so extreme that we get a laugh every time we hear it, and repeat it for the same reason.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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26-10-2012, 04:36 AM (This post was last modified: 26-10-2012 04:53 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Scared to stop believing
(25-10-2012 03:52 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(25-10-2012 12:32 PM)onedream Wrote:  I don't know if I could respect myself knowing that I'm lying to 200 Thousand listeners everyday.

... As for your job and livelihood, start looking for other work now. Find a way to transition to a more secular career (or just secular station)...

Uh! Hello?

Stay exactly where you are!

Do NOT move a muscle.

That's 200,000 potential deconversions if you handle it right.

Announce that you are interested in why so many people are turning away from Faith and ask your listeners to send you questions that would be good to ask to Atheists and non-believers or even just people who have switched their brand of christianity.

User-involvement is important. It will help you understand what your audience are interested in and also deflect attention away from a personal agenda.

Start inviting some of us onto your show.

Start with the non-threatening ones, like LadyJane, Kim, Dom, KC and Erx (maybe "less" threatening in his case) and then some more assertive ones (A-squared, Vos) and in subsequent weeks invite some of our hard-core bull-dogs (Bucky, Mark Fulton etc.) before inviting the Terse and Deadly one.

Be careful though, you don't want to freak your audience (Girly, Muffsy).

Challenge us, cajole us, probe us (no, not like that Confused ) we can take it.

As the weeks go by, you can become slowly less negative and then more positive about non-belief.

At the end, you can announce your deconversion and those who have been on the journey with you will understand.


I await your call.

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26-10-2012, 04:49 AM
RE: Scared to stop believing
(25-10-2012 09:41 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(25-10-2012 08:54 PM)onedream Wrote:  Well...here's a question:

It's about evolution. Creationists claim there are no "transitional species."

You know...species that show a transition from one species to another; Macro Evolution.

What say y'all?

Okay. FIRST of all, here, have an obligatory, nigh-automatic caveat that evolutionary origin of species has virtually nothing to do with atheism. You can subscribe to neither, either, or both, with no inherent contradiction. A pet peeve for many atheists is Christians who try to convert them by cutting down evolutionary origin, because it has very, very little to do with their atheism, but they're still tempted into a debate on the subject because geez, 90% of those arguments are crap. (Then again, 90% of everything is crap.) For that matter, evolutionary origin and creationism aren't contradictory; I've lost count of the number of theists I know who subscribe to evolutionary origin, either as a tool God used to implement creation or something that happened after creation. There, done with caveats, phew.

The "Transitional Species" trick is a bit like Xeno's paradox of the arrow. It goes a bit like this:

1) Paleontologists discover two species in the fossil record, A and B, and theorize that A is the ancestor of B.
2) The evolution-denier says, HA! You can't prove it, because you don't have a transitional species linking A and B! Nyeh!
3) Some years or decades later, paleontologists stumble over a fossil of a new species that looks like it fits the bill. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_%28fossil%29 ) They theorize that it is the missing link in question, and that A is the ancestor of T which is the ancestor of B. (They also spend a lot of time sniping at each other on the subject. Peer review is like that.)
4) The evolution-denier says, HA! You can't prove it, because you don't have a transitional species linking A to T OR T to B! Nyeh!

The problem is that no matter how complete the fossil record (and it's very, very incomplete, simply because the nature of the fossilization process only preserves a tiny sampling of previous species), the evolution-denier can simply apply this argument over, and over, and over, and over, REGARDLESS of the truth of the situation. And the fact that they can apply this argument regardless of the truth the biggest red flag you can raise that it isn't really a good counterargument.

(It would be different, of course, if the fossil record was more complete, and we could damn well EXPECT there to be a transitional species on record. Then the absence would be significant and cause for concern. But as is, the gaps in the record are entirely consistent with our understanding of how the world works.)

I think one of the fundamental flaws in the way science's main opponents view science is that they don't understand that science is a process or path, leading from ignorant to less-ignorant and from poor understanding to better understanding. Simply pointing out holes in what we presently know doesn't debunk this process. Indeed, anyone who understands science expects those holes to be there in the first place. That's the hole point. *rimshot*

... or to put it simply: All fossils are transitional fossils.

My dream would be for have Ray Comfort shove his vox-pop mic in my face and ask me if I've seen a transitional fossil.

I'd say: "Yeah, you, old man"

Smile

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26-10-2012, 05:39 AM
RE: Scared to stop believing
This is more the kind of thing meant by "transitional" - http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14...k-out.html - but of course there's gonna be hype and sensationalism involved. So if you say, "hey, here's a fishy with a neck," they'll just say, "neck fishes are just another kind.." Dodgy

What's more telling, IMO, is not what creationism gets wrong - almost everything - but what creationism seems to get right, yet overlooked. Like god pulling the legs off the serpent (bad snake, bad!) as it seems those things used to have legs... then there's 1:24 - "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds." which sure reads like "let each species evolve according to its environment" to me. Big Grin

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