Scared to stop believing
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29-10-2012, 04:59 PM
RE: Scared to stop believing
(29-10-2012 04:24 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Someone tell Denicio to get in here. He has experience of dealing with a wife who is pretty unhappy about his atheism. And he has been involved in the CCM industry as well. Plus, he's the Dude, and the Dude abides.

You obviously ain't been married have you Erx? Don't go kicking unfamiliar beehives looking for honey. ... Just sayin' is all.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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29-10-2012, 05:28 PM
RE: Scared to stop believing
(29-10-2012 12:30 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  ... he was using atheism as a justification to become a hedonist. That scans, but hedonism is ultimately empty and without gratification...

Whoa, there boy!

Says you. But please don't condemn my lifestyle with such off-handednessosity.

Hedonism alone? Yes.

From Wikip "...a hedonist strives to maximise net pleasure (pleasure minus pain).
Ethical hedonism is the idea that all people have the right to do everything in their power to achieve the greatest amount of pleasure possible to them. It is also the idea that every person's pleasure should far surpass their amount of pain."

Surely there is gratification in this.

If one couples that with e.g. a buddhist-y objective of minimising the suffering of others, one has the basis for +gratification and -emptiness.

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29-10-2012, 05:34 PM
RE: Scared to stop believing
(29-10-2012 11:50 AM)onedream Wrote:  She's afraid that I'm going to "Become an atheist" and use my newfound "Lack of morality" as an excuse to leave her and the kids.

I'd go with this...

"It wasn't by god's command that I fell in love with you.
It isn't by god's command that I stay by your side."



That's fuckin' poetry, that is!

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29-10-2012, 05:40 PM
RE: Scared to stop believing
(29-10-2012 12:53 PM)onedream Wrote:  
(29-10-2012 11:57 AM)lucradis Wrote:  Awesome, you get it!

It really boggles the old noggin as to how people can actually believe that without god in your life you become this hideously evil beast of evil. It makes no sense. Like we are all kids in a room supervised by adults and as soon as they leave we are going to raid the candy drawer. (murder and rape being candy obviously)

It always gives me a bit of a chill, because to me if a person can't see a reason not to murder people without the punishment of hell... they might be dangerously close to murdering people.

By the way, welcome to the forum.

No matter which way you turn it doesn't bug me, so long as you understand a few things. One already you've got down pat. Religion is not equal to morality.

Another would be that religion and politics/school are like water and oil.

And yet another is that whether you're religious or not you should treat everyone fairly. That includes letting your kids make their choices free from guilt and persecution. Unless they are like little evil jerks who do horrible things.


RIGHT!!!

I always hear "Well if there's no God, what's keeping you from just raping and murdering everyone you hate?"

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????? Really? This assumes that I want to rape and murder as a default. Oh, but thank God he's there to keep me from doing it.

Oooh! Theories and hypotheses and stereotypes, these are just begging for data. IIRC, the incarceration rate for violent crime (including rape) is lower among atheists than for Christians, and the divorce rate is... lower? Comparable? I forget. Does someone know how or where to dig up these numbers?

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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29-10-2012, 07:56 PM
RE: Scared to stop believing
I, like DLJ, take exception to the hedonism remark. Hedonism does not mean doing whatever the hell I feel like in that instance. A good hedonist takes into account the feelings of those he/she likes and the long term effects of something. So for example, I love my wife. I would like to go rent a few prostitutes for the evening. My wife would leave my ass if I did that. My wife leaving me would cause much more pain than a night of raunchy sex with dirty whores. Therefore, hedonist me well not go fucking dirty whores. Conversely, I do not like chick flicks. My wife loves them. She makes me happy. Therefore I will on occasion go watch some hard-bodied twenty something realize that he found love, and it was under his nose the whole time he was chasing the shallow hot girl. My wife is happy, which in turn me makes happier, even though I didn't enjoy the movie. Don't get caught up on the examples, they are just that...mostly. Basically you are applying math to your happiness to get the most happiness that you can out of life.

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29-10-2012, 08:07 PM
RE: Scared to stop believing
(29-10-2012 05:40 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Oooh! Theories and hypotheses and stereotypes, these are just begging for data. IIRC, the incarceration rate for violent crime (including rape) is lower among atheists than for Christians, and the divorce rate is... lower? Comparable? I forget. Does someone know how or where to dig up these numbers?

Short Answer
Variation in divorce rates by religion:
Religion % have been divorced
Jews 30%
Born-again Christians 27%
Other Christians 24%
Atheists, Agnostics 21%

Long answer along with all the complaints from outspoken Christians can be found here http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm. I'm not suggesting these numbers are 100% accurate, because I didn't read enough about how the poll was conducted or how large of a group they tested but I seems that at the very least a site dedicated to religious tolerance would be more likely to be fair than something like the ChristianMoniter, or Free Thinkers Group, but I could be wrong, didn't browse the site long enough to look for agendas.

EDIT: These are for US figures only

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29-10-2012, 08:18 PM
RE: Scared to stop believing
(29-10-2012 07:56 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  I, like DLJ, take exception to the hedonism remark. Hedonism does not mean doing whatever the hell I feel like in that instance. A good hedonist takes into account the feelings of those he/she likes and the long term effects of something. So for example, I love my wife. I would like to go rent a few prostitutes for the evening. My wife would leave my ass if I did that. My wife leaving me would cause much more pain than a night of raunchy sex with dirty whores. Therefore, hedonist me well not go fucking dirty whores. Conversely, I do not like chick flicks. My wife loves them. She makes me happy. Therefore I will on occasion go watch some hard-bodied twenty something realize that he found love, and it was under his nose the whole time he was chasing the shallow hot girl. My wife is happy, which in turn me makes happier, even though I didn't enjoy the movie. Don't get caught up on the examples, they are just that...mostly. Basically you are applying math to your happiness to get the most happiness that you can out of life.

The real question is, what are your values? Not in terms of your ideas of right versus wrong (that's another issue, though a worthy one), but in terms of enjoyable versus not. Do you prefer to spend your days in adrenaline filled daredevil dirtbiking or kicking back in your living room with a good book? Would you rather have a momentary but intensely wonderful experience now, or an even better one in five years? A lot of hedonism comes down to personal taste, and not many people actually have a taste for full-on debauchery.

Practical morals kick in both in terms of consequences that impact your happiness (wife leaves because of cheating, or you just have a long and hideous painful Talk), and additionally they can directly effect your enjoyment of something. I might not normally like spending a day under a hot sun nailing together 2x4s, but I might get warm fuzzies if I'm doing it for Habitat for Humanity. See also "guilt".

To follow morals that make everyone involved even more miserable than if they weren't followed -- that is, if they help no one and hurt everyone -- is... well, questionable at best.

I can identify one situation ONLY where a newfound atheism can be used to justify leaving a spouse, and that's if the only reason for being with a spouse in the first place was because of the religion. I'm talking about forcible marriages, or spouses who stay with their abusers because they think God wills it. In these cases, it still isn't atheism justifying anything. Leaving is ALREADY justified, and the atheism is just removing one of the fetters holding a person back.

I suggest you don't focus on this abstract argument, onedream. Focus on your wife. Be there for her and trust her to be there for you.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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29-10-2012, 11:59 PM
RE: Scared to stop believing
(29-10-2012 08:18 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(29-10-2012 07:56 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  I, like DLJ, take exception to the hedonism remark. Hedonism does not mean doing whatever the hell I feel like in that instance. A good hedonist takes into account the feelings of those he/she likes and the long term effects of something. So for example, I love my wife. I would like to go rent a few prostitutes for the evening. My wife would leave my ass if I did that. My wife leaving me would cause much more pain than a night of raunchy sex with dirty whores. Therefore, hedonist me well not go fucking dirty whores. Conversely, I do not like chick flicks. My wife loves them. She makes me happy. Therefore I will on occasion go watch some hard-bodied twenty something realize that he found love, and it was under his nose the whole time he was chasing the shallow hot girl. My wife is happy, which in turn me makes happier, even though I didn't enjoy the movie. Don't get caught up on the examples, they are just that...mostly. Basically you are applying math to your happiness to get the most happiness that you can out of life.

The real question is, what are your values? Not in terms of your ideas of right versus wrong (that's another issue, though a worthy one), but in terms of enjoyable versus not. Do you prefer to spend your days in adrenaline filled daredevil dirtbiking or kicking back in your living room with a good book? Would you rather have a momentary but intensely wonderful experience now, or an even better one in five years? A lot of hedonism comes down to personal taste, and not many people actually have a taste for full-on debauchery.

Practical morals kick in both in terms of consequences that impact your happiness (wife leaves because of cheating, or you just have a long and hideous painful Talk), and additionally they can directly effect your enjoyment of something. I might not normally like spending a day under a hot sun nailing together 2x4s, but I might get warm fuzzies if I'm doing it for Habitat for Humanity. See also "guilt".

To follow morals that make everyone involved even more miserable than if they weren't followed -- that is, if they help no one and hurt everyone -- is... well, questionable at best.

My values, as in what character traits do I value? If so I guess you could say I am a relativist in that limited sense, as in Aristotelian Relativism. I do not believe that Hedonism conflicts with the things I value though some would argue it is a dichotomy. As for morals, I think there is no absolute morals (again like Aristotle) but I rather follow Hume's ideas on morality. Actually, I can't think of anything off the top of my head that Hume and I wouldn't agree on. Kant buggered it up IMHO, though he probably gets more respect. Sorry to derail onedream. Unsure

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30-10-2012, 11:57 AM
RE: Scared to stop believing
I'm just enjoying the responses, both to yourselves and to me.

Feel free to derail. I'm reading with interest.
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30-10-2012, 01:49 PM
RE: Scared to stop believing
(29-10-2012 05:28 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(29-10-2012 12:30 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  ... he was using atheism as a justification to become a hedonist. That scans, but hedonism is ultimately empty and without gratification...

Whoa, there boy!

Says you. But please don't condemn my lifestyle with such off-handednessosity.

Hedonism alone? Yes.

(29-10-2012 07:56 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  I, like DLJ, take exception to the hedonism remark.

Maximizing pleasure without balancing it with pain diminishes both. DL and DLJ should both suck my sweaty ballz. Only then will they realize the proper ratio of pleasure to pain.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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