Scenario: You bought a house, and your significant other moves in. Do you charge?
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07-11-2014, 08:13 AM
RE: Scenario: You bought a house, and your significant other moves in. Do you charge?
(07-11-2014 07:20 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(06-11-2014 04:53 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  I don't think the cost of the mortgage directly factors in because she has no stake in the property. Not to mention that the mortgage is heavily influenced by down payment size and your interest rate. That's why I personally think of it more of a function on the market rate for rent, because then she knows she is saving money over living elsewhere (and she gets a whole lot of extra perks such as decoration/ lots of space, new appliances, huge kitchen, etc).

Look dude - you are over analyzing this way too much. The mortgage is what it costs to live there. It's paying rent to yourself. The reason why it's paying rent to yourself is because even if you sell the house, you will never get everything you paid into the house (repairs, upgrades, etc.) back. People get confused over this, understandably so when cnn money writes misleading articles about real estate. Specifically, when they say you will get 70% return on your asset, that means you LOSE 30%. It's extremely rare that people get all their money back in terms of appreciation.

A mortgage is no different than rent. I promise you that any rent you paid before you owned was the price of the mortgage, tax, water consumption and a few hundred more to cover repairs. Most landlords don't rent for less than the expense of owning it. That would be stupid.

Therefore, she she cover half the damn mortgage. It's rent.

This is suppose to be your significant other. Your PARTNER. No one gets to live rent free. A partner that balks at the thought of contributing to a future together is someone you should not be partnered with.

Mortgage is different than rent. It is servicing the debt on an investment. I do not know how the laws concerning debt and non-married cohabitators. Personally I would be to worried about them making a claim against my property if the relationship went bad to risk the potential comingling of funds on my investment.

Besides my wife has not worked most of the time we have been married and when she did work it was never a significant contribution. So for me it would be no different than being married if I let them stay rent free.
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07-11-2014, 08:14 AM
RE: Scenario: You bought a house, and your significant other moves in. Do you charge?
(06-11-2014 04:15 PM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  
(06-11-2014 03:02 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  If I own the home and aren't looking for a roommate to share my expanses so I afford said home, then yes I would only ask them to help with utilities, food expenses and other crap. If I lived alone the burden would be mine anyway.

Regarding my friend. 90% of her clothes were at his place, and they lived together in his house. She went to her place about once a month for an hour or less to tidy up, (dust vacuum), and pay her rent. Her water, garbage and cable were included in her rent. Her only other bill was for electricity and since she was never there was next to nothing. He never once asked or accepted payment for anything including food.

This has been my experience too. I am living with them or they with me because we want to be together. Expenses just sorted themselves out. Some relationships I made the money, some they did, some we both did.

I have noticed some people are all about things being fair, 50/50, everything is equal and it seems like a score or tally sheet is kept. but other people (me) just go with the flow. If I am in love, or atleast making you a regular sex partner that its beginning to feel like we live together then we are both contributing in some way, for the benefit of both of us, whether that is money or other means (laundry, cooking, being dreamy to look at and fun to sleep with) whatever, it all works out in the end, IMO.

But in this scenario, it seems like you are acting like sex is a commodity. Sex doesn't buy you things unless you are in that type of relationship.
Not what I would consider healthy, but I digress.

Every boyfriend I've ever lived with, it was by mutual agreement that we would contribute to the expenses in whatever ways we could. Cooking and cleaning isn't payment for expenses because again, cooking and cleaning have to happen regardless.

When I lived with Andrew, I was the breadwinner and also had a long commute. He did the cooking and cleaning because I simply did not have enough hours in a day to do that. He didn't do that to make up for the lack of payment. If he was the one working longer hours but still making less, I would be the one to cook and clean.

When I lived with Geoff he made more money, had the longer commute, but I worked longer hours. Whomever got home first started dinner.

If something was dirty, it got cleaned by whomever was available to clean it.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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07-11-2014, 08:29 AM
RE: Scenario: You bought a house, and your significant other moves in. Do you charge?
(07-11-2014 08:13 AM)wazzel Wrote:  Mortgage is different than rent. It is servicing the debt on an investment. I do not know how the laws concerning debt and non-married cohabitators. Personally I would be to worried about them making a claim against my property if the relationship went bad to risk the potential comingling of funds on my investment.

Besides my wife has not worked most of the time we have been married and when she did work it was never a significant contribution. So for me it would be no different than being married if I let them stay rent free.

I disagree. I mean, of course, literally mortgage is different than rent. But in practicality it isn't. When you rent from a landlord - you are paying them an amount greater than their mortgage on the property. Ergo, the renter pays the mortgage. No landlord is going to rent for a negative cash flow (barring a really shitty rental market). A renter doesn't then have claim not the property because of it. If the renter makes repairs on the house, including any upgrades, they don't get to claim equity in the dwelling even if their repairs improved the value of the home.

If her name is not on the deed, she doesn't get any stake in the house. And considering that if she can't afford to contribute to the expenses of living, then do you really think she can afford a lawyer and the costs of going to court? Doubt it.

When I moved in with my fiancee, I paid for his bathroom to get remodeled. And when the basement flooded, I paid for the repairs (which included replacing the flooring). If we had called off the engagement, I would not have gotten a dime back, nor would I have had any claim to the property. He bought it before we were married, he continues to own the house if we divorce. I made the repairs and remodeled the bathroom because I didn't want to live with mold, or shower in a cruddy bathroom.

In the US, any assets you brought into the relationship remain yours, so long as you don't mingle them. The only way she would have claim to the equity in the house is if she co-signed for an equity line of credit on the house, or her credit was used in any way for the home.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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07-11-2014, 08:41 AM
RE: Scenario: You bought a house, and your significant other moves in. Do you charge?
(06-11-2014 11:39 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(06-11-2014 03:17 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Most British legal tradition inherited the idea of common-law relationships, though it only remains in Canada, Australia, NZ, and some US states.

But in none of the jurisdictions I am aware of does recognition of one entitle a partner to "half your stuff"; hell, solemnized marriages don't work like that...

in NZ they get half your stuff
http://www.howtolaw.co/division-of-prope...nds-392064
Quote:The property of married, civil union and de facto couples (including same-sex couples) who have lived together for at least three years is divided (if there is a dispute) according to 'equal-sharing rules' under the Property (Relationships) Act.
...
A de facto relationship means a relationship between a woman and a man, or a woman and a woman, or a man and a man, who:

live together as a couple, but are not married to each other, and
are both 18 or older

In Australia they may have a significant entitlement
http://www.landers.com.au/publications/f...-is-yours/

Don't know about England or USA, but a quick perusal suggests that you ought to be careful in England.

Again, he doesn't live outside the US. So NZ, AU, and any other countries laws are completely irrelevant. (Unless I'm mistaken and he doesn't live in the US).

Also - in the US, common law marriage takes YEARS to establish, and the couple has to prove that they held themselves out to the public as though they were married. If he doesn't start referring to her as his wife on social media, or in any life insurance as a "spouse", or claim her as a beneficiary on his assets, then the common law marriage would be difficult to prove on her part.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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07-11-2014, 08:46 AM
RE: Scenario: You bought a house, and your significant other moves in. Do you charge?
(07-11-2014 08:29 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(07-11-2014 08:13 AM)wazzel Wrote:  Mortgage is different than rent. It is servicing the debt on an investment. I do not know how the laws concerning debt and non-married cohabitators. Personally I would be to worried about them making a claim against my property if the relationship went bad to risk the potential comingling of funds on my investment.

Besides my wife has not worked most of the time we have been married and when she did work it was never a significant contribution. So for me it would be no different than being married if I let them stay rent free.

I disagree. I mean, of course, literally mortgage is different than rent. But in practicality it isn't. When you rent from a landlord - you are paying them an amount greater than their mortgage on the property. Ergo, the renter pays the mortgage. No landlord is going to rent for a negative cash flow (barring a really shitty rental market). A renter doesn't then have claim not the property because of it. If the renter makes repairs on the house, including any upgrades, they don't get to claim equity in the dwelling even if their repairs improved the value of the home.

If her name is not on the deed, she doesn't get any stake in the house. And considering that if she can't afford to contribute to the expenses of living, then do you really think she can afford a lawyer and the costs of going to court? Doubt it.

When I moved in with my fiancee, I paid for his bathroom to get remodeled. And when the basement flooded, I paid for the repairs (which included replacing the flooring). If we had called off the engagement, I would not have gotten a dime back, nor would I have had any claim to the property. He bought it before we were married, he continues to own the house if we divorce. I made the repairs and remodeled the bathroom because I didn't want to live with mold, or shower in a cruddy bathroom.

In the US, any assets you brought into the relationship remain yours, so long as you don't mingle them. The only way she would have claim to the equity in the house is if she co-signed for an equity line of credit on the house, or her credit was used in any way for the home.

If you rent you sign a rental agreement so you know the conditions before hand. For cohabitation, if it last long enough with both parties paying the mortgage I think the non-owner can make a claim they are entitled to a portion of the property since they helped to service the debt. I am not 100% sure on that. I tried searching, but it is hard to dig through. I did find one for Ireland that states the non-owner can make a claim since by paying the mortgage they are actually helping fund the purchase. Not sure how that relates to the US.
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07-11-2014, 09:05 AM
RE: Scenario: You bought a house, and your significant other moves in. Do you charge?
(07-11-2014 08:46 AM)wazzel Wrote:  
(07-11-2014 08:29 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I disagree. I mean, of course, literally mortgage is different than rent. But in practicality it isn't. When you rent from a landlord - you are paying them an amount greater than their mortgage on the property. Ergo, the renter pays the mortgage. No landlord is going to rent for a negative cash flow (barring a really shitty rental market). A renter doesn't then have claim not the property because of it. If the renter makes repairs on the house, including any upgrades, they don't get to claim equity in the dwelling even if their repairs improved the value of the home.

If her name is not on the deed, she doesn't get any stake in the house. And considering that if she can't afford to contribute to the expenses of living, then do you really think she can afford a lawyer and the costs of going to court? Doubt it.

When I moved in with my fiancee, I paid for his bathroom to get remodeled. And when the basement flooded, I paid for the repairs (which included replacing the flooring). If we had called off the engagement, I would not have gotten a dime back, nor would I have had any claim to the property. He bought it before we were married, he continues to own the house if we divorce. I made the repairs and remodeled the bathroom because I didn't want to live with mold, or shower in a cruddy bathroom.

In the US, any assets you brought into the relationship remain yours, so long as you don't mingle them. The only way she would have claim to the equity in the house is if she co-signed for an equity line of credit on the house, or her credit was used in any way for the home.

If you rent you sign a rental agreement so you know the conditions before hand. For cohabitation, if it last long enough with both parties paying the mortgage I think the non-owner can make a claim they are entitled to a portion of the property since they helped to service the debt. I am not 100% sure on that. I tried searching, but it is hard to dig through. I did find one for Ireland that states the non-owner can make a claim since by paying the mortgage they are actually helping fund the purchase. Not sure how that relates to the US.

Are you aware that when you pay a mortgage - especially in the beginning - more than 80% of your mortgage payment goes to cover the interest on the loan? Very little of that payment goes to pay down the principal of the loan, which is why some people pay more each month than their minimum payment to help pay down the loan faster.

It takes a good 5 solid years to start having real equity in the house (market aside).

So any money that she would contribute would not be contributing significantly to the equity. Ergo, she would not be entitled to it.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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07-11-2014, 09:15 AM (This post was last modified: 07-11-2014 09:45 AM by Cathym112.)
RE: Scenario: You bought a house, and your significant other moves in. Do you charge?
http://stimmel-law.com/article/cohabitat...nder-law-0

Took me 5 seconds to find it.

"On the other hand, unmarried cohabitants do not enjoy the same rights usually automatically granted to married individuals, particularly with respect to property acquired during a relationship. Marital property laws usually do not apply to unmarried couples, even in long-term relationships. Moreover, laws regarding distribution of property of one spouse to another at death, rights to take care of the property of the other during periods of mental incompetency, even visitation rights at hospitals, do not apply to unmarried couples absent extraordinary efforts creating and filing various documentation that some states allow. Children of unmarried couples have traditionally not been afforded the same rights as children of married couples, though most of these laws have now been revised to avoid unfairness towards offspring."

Here is another:

http://communityproperty.uslegal.com/pro...-marriage/

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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07-11-2014, 09:30 AM
RE: Scenario: You bought a house, and your significant other moves in. Do you charge?
(07-11-2014 08:41 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(06-11-2014 11:39 PM)Stevil Wrote:  in NZ they get half your stuff
http://www.howtolaw.co/division-of-prope...nds-392064

In Australia they may have a significant entitlement
http://www.landers.com.au/publications/f...-is-yours/

Don't know about England or USA, but a quick perusal suggests that you ought to be careful in England.

Again, he doesn't live outside the US. So NZ, AU, and any other countries laws are completely irrelevant. (Unless I'm mistaken and he doesn't live in the US).

Also - in the US, common law marriage takes YEARS to establish, and the couple has to prove that they held themselves out to the public as though they were married. If he doesn't start referring to her as his wife on social media, or in any life insurance as a "spouse", or claim her as a beneficiary on his assets, then the common law marriage would be difficult to prove on her part.

Me? I live in Canada.

In no case in Ontario civil court has the judge just up and shrugged, "welp, 50/50 it is" without any prior consideration, which was my point. Even for recognised marriages the so-called "equitable split" does not apply to pre-existing or excluded assets.

For common-law couples here there is no consideration of any property other than that which is explicitly jointly held, with the exception of that falling under "constructive trust"; i.e., if one partner puts money towards maintenance of another's assets, it's a type of implicit joint ownership (generally but not necessarily property). Individual assets go to the individuals, period.
(unless, obviously, someone files a dispute in court - but if you're going to court at all there are necessarily already things under dispute)

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07-11-2014, 09:33 AM
RE: Scenario: You bought a house, and your significant other moves in. Do you charge?
(07-11-2014 09:05 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(07-11-2014 08:46 AM)wazzel Wrote:  If you rent you sign a rental agreement so you know the conditions before hand. For cohabitation, if it last long enough with both parties paying the mortgage I think the non-owner can make a claim they are entitled to a portion of the property since they helped to service the debt. I am not 100% sure on that. I tried searching, but it is hard to dig through. I did find one for Ireland that states the non-owner can make a claim since by paying the mortgage they are actually helping fund the purchase. Not sure how that relates to the US.

Are you aware that when you pay a mortgage - especially in the beginning - more than 80% of your mortgage payment goes to cover the interest on the loan? Very little of that payment goes to pay down the principal of the loan, which is why some people pay more each month than their minimum payment to help pay down the loan faster.

It takes a good 5 solid years to start having real equity in the house (market aside).

So any money that she would contribute would not be contributing significantly to the equity. Ergo, she would not be entitled to it.

I am on my 5th house, I am very aware of how much interest you pay at the start.
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07-11-2014, 09:43 AM
RE: Scenario: You bought a house, and your significant other moves in. Do you charge?
(07-11-2014 07:20 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(06-11-2014 04:53 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  I don't think the cost of the mortgage directly factors in because she has no stake in the property. Not to mention that the mortgage is heavily influenced by down payment size and your interest rate.

Look dude - you are over analyzing this way too much. The mortgage is what it costs to live there. It's paying rent to yourself. The reason why it's paying rent to yourself is because even if you sell the house, you will never get everything you paid into the house (repairs, upgrades, etc.) back. People get confused over this, understandably so when cnn money writes misleading articles about real estate. Specifically, when they say you will get 70% return on your asset, that means you LOSE 30%. It's extremely rare that people get all their money back in terms of appreciation.

A mortgage is no different than rent. I promise you that any rent you paid before you owned was the price of the mortgage, tax, water consumption and a few hundred more to cover repairs. Most landlords don't rent for less than the expense of owning it. That would be stupid.

Therefore, she she cover half the damn mortgage. It's rent.

This is suppose to be your significant other. Your PARTNER. No one gets to live rent free. A partner that balks at the thought of contributing to a future together is someone you should not be partnered with.
I'll try to explain to you why I think mortgage cost is not the best thing to base the charge off of.

These simple examples will use a 30 year fixed mortgage. and adding close to .083% of the cost of the home to the monthly cost to account for tax.

example 1: House: 300K, Down payment 100K, Interest rate 3%
Mortgage ~= 1k / month

example 2: House: 300K, Down payment 30K, Interest rate 3%
Mortgage ~= 1.4K / month

example 3: House 300K, Down payment 30K, Interest rate 5%
Mortgage ~= 1.7k / month
---
example 4: House: 700K, Down payment 140K, Interest rate 3%
Mortgage ~= 2.95k / month

example 5: House: 700K, Down payment 400K, Interest rate 3%
Mortgage ~= 1.85K / month

example 6: House 700K, Down payment 100K, Interest rate 5%
Mortgage ~= 3.8k / month
---

That's enough rough examples (I think).
In examples 1-3 the mortgage ranges $700 based on how the initial buyer chose (or was forced to based on their credit/financial situation) to purchase the home.

In examples 4-6, the mortgage ranges almost 2k

All of these examples assume a 30 year fixed mortgage. But choosing an adjustable mortgage would likely increase the long term monthly payments, or choosing a 15 year fixed would greatly increase the mortgage payment.

The point is, these are the consequences of the choices of the buyer. Somebody coming into the home after the fact shouldn't need to spend an extra $1000-$2000 per month just because the buyer chose to buy with a tiny down payment, a shorter mortgage, or a high interest rate.

I don't think that's over-thinking. The market rate for rent makes a lot more sense to be the maximum amount you would ask for.

This is completely different from buying a home together, in which case splitting 50/50 makes complete sense.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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