School dress codes, objectification, admiration. Mostly for women.
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09-12-2015, 04:17 PM
RE: School dress codes, objectification, admiration. Mostly for women.
(09-12-2015 03:58 PM)julep Wrote:  IMO the guidelines are pretty straightforward:

It's never okay to blame someone's outfit for your bad behavior.

If you wouldn't comment on a male colleague's appearance and sex appeal, then don't do it to a female colleague (or student, etc.). Save it for the bar or the party.
So no dress codes (school or work) necessary because people shouldn't ever be distracted by sexual impulse/desire?

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09-12-2015, 04:41 PM
RE: School dress codes, objectification, admiration. Mostly for women.
(09-12-2015 04:17 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  So no dress codes (school or work) necessary because people shouldn't ever be distracted by sexual impulse/desire?
School is a place to learn skills about how to navigate through life, how to navigate through society. I'm not sure how removing certain aspects of real-world life benefits students.
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09-12-2015, 05:10 PM
RE: School dress codes, objectification, admiration. Mostly for women.
(09-12-2015 04:41 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(09-12-2015 04:17 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  So no dress codes (school or work) necessary because people shouldn't ever be distracted by sexual impulse/desire?
School is a place to learn skills about how to navigate through life, how to navigate through society. I'm not sure how removing certain aspects of real-world life benefits students.
So a dress code makes sense at work but not at school?

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09-12-2015, 05:24 PM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2015 05:27 PM by epronovost.)
RE: School dress codes, objectification, admiration. Mostly for women.
(09-12-2015 04:41 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(09-12-2015 04:17 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  So no dress codes (school or work) necessary because people shouldn't ever be distracted by sexual impulse/desire?
School is a place to learn skills about how to navigate through life, how to navigate through society. I'm not sure how removing certain aspects of real-world life benefits students.

As a high school level teacher, I don't really have time to spare to educate my students on the proper dress code in a work environment or in the various spheres of society. Give the student a clear dress code and have him/her obey it or even better a good old uniform. It's much less time consuming. Let parents teach their teens proper etiquette and dress codes. I already have to deal with some parent shitty job when it comes to working ethics, social behavior, emotionnal anchors, teamwork and poor sexual education. If there is an easy way to reduce my extra work load, allow me to be lazy and take it with both hand. Then, at least, I can devote more energy into what I am actually trained and paid for.

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09-12-2015, 05:36 PM
RE: School dress codes, objectification, admiration. Mostly for women.
(09-12-2015 04:17 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(09-12-2015 03:58 PM)julep Wrote:  IMO the guidelines are pretty straightforward:

It's never okay to blame someone's outfit for your bad behavior.

If you wouldn't comment on a male colleague's appearance and sex appeal, then don't do it to a female colleague (or student, etc.). Save it for the bar or the party.
So no dress codes (school or work) necessary because people shouldn't ever be distracted by sexual impulse/desire?

I don't have a problem at all with gender-neutral dress codes. Dress codes designed equally to avoid distraction for both genders, I can deal with those, too. Dress codes that hold women responsible for "distracting" men and not vice versa are problematic.

My job requires me to be dress in all black to minimize visual distraction, and I don't mind that at all.

However, as most people have learned some level of impulse control by age 5, it's reasonable to expect males in a workplace or a school to be able to control their responses when a woman they find attractive is in the room, which would include returning their attention to the work or the lesson. We expect people to be able to handle some level of distraction and still function capably, or no one would ever be allowed to drive a car or have the TV on while preparing dinner, etc., etc.

Men who are going to be jerks and objectify women are going to do so no matter how much clothing the woman is wearing, and then find a way to make their behavior her fault.
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09-12-2015, 05:50 PM
RE: School dress codes, objectification, admiration. Mostly for women.
(09-12-2015 01:13 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  I won't say too much here, but I'll ask some questions.

If a woman wears a top, intentionally showing cleavage, should she be offended when somebody gazes at her in admiration?

If a "developed" 14-15 year old girl puts on make-up and wears skin-tight or other revealing clothing so that she looks more or less like what a "Sexy 20 year old" would look like. Should a 25 year old person who found her attractive be shamed? Or feel guilty?

Is it wrong to acknowledge when a woman's body is beautiful? Why or why not?

Should girls in school fight to be able to wear as revealing of clothing as is allowed in a mall? If so, is work any different? Why or why not? How is a work dress code more acceptable than a school dress code?

Is the fight for the de-sexualization of breasts a worthy cause? Or is it unreasonable to expect societies to change? If breasts are literally arousing to many, how do you de-sexualize them?

What is objectification? If you admire and find beautiful the female body is that objectification? Or does it need to go a step or two further? Gazing? Staring? Pick-up lines? Harassment? Assault?

Is it body shaming to tell a woman that because people may find her body beautiful and appealing that it should not be fully exposed?

Note: there are obvious parallel questions I could ask about men/boys, but that topic isn't nearly as widespread an issue of contention.

When I retired from the USA I moved to the Dominican Republic and a big part of the reason is how the women dress here. No one has any problem at all with showing the top 1/3 of their boobs. From 13 years old to 70 and more. Small ones and huge ones, there for the gazing, and I doubt if, in this society, anyone expects men not to look!
That is my take on such things. Love to look and if you don't like it cover them up!
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09-12-2015, 05:53 PM
RE: School dress codes, objectification, admiration. Mostly for women.
(09-12-2015 01:13 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  If breasts are literally arousing to many, how do you de-sexualize them?

It's pretty easy.

[Image: moob_2.jpg]
[Image: moobs-3.jpg]
[Image: moob.jpg]
[Image: moob6.jpg]
[Image: John-Travolta.jpg]
[Image: nicholsonmboob.jpg]

#sigh
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09-12-2015, 06:16 PM
RE: School dress codes, objectification, admiration. Mostly for women.
(09-12-2015 05:36 PM)julep Wrote:  I don't have a problem at all with gender-neutral dress codes. Dress codes designed equally to avoid distraction for both genders, I can deal with those, too. Dress codes that hold women responsible for "distracting" men and not vice versa are problematic.

My job requires me to be dress in all black to minimize visual distraction, and I don't mind that at all.
Would you say that a dress code that asks boys to keep their shirts on in school would be for the sake of not distracting others?

I wonder if guys started commonly wearing leggings that showed front bulges and butt curves if that would be considered distracting. I bet it would?

I think both guys and girls can dress in distracting ways. It's usually different though, how a guy distracts vs how a girl does.

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09-12-2015, 06:36 PM
RE: School dress codes, objectification, admiration. Mostly for women.
(09-12-2015 05:24 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(09-12-2015 04:41 PM)Stevil Wrote:  School is a place to learn skills about how to navigate through life, how to navigate through society. I'm not sure how removing certain aspects of real-world life benefits students.

As a high school level teacher, I don't really have time to spare to educate my students on the proper dress code in a work environment or in the various spheres of society. Give the student a clear dress code and have him/her obey it or even better a good old uniform. It's much less time consuming. Let parents teach their teens proper etiquette and dress codes. I already have to deal with some parent shitty job when it comes to working ethics, social behavior, emotionnal anchors, teamwork and poor sexual education. If there is an easy way to reduce my extra work load, allow me to be lazy and take it with both hand. Then, at least, I can devote more energy into what I am actually trained and paid for.
Yes, agreed. I think the kids could go to school in their own normal clothes. I don't see any value in school uniforms. If the girls wear jewelry and makeup then that is up to them, if they wear short skirts and short shorts then that is upto them.
Life is full of choices and consequences. If girls wear "trampy" clothes and find that they are attracting the boys who only have one thing on their mind, then that is life. I don't see why school ought to create a bubble universe, I don't see why school ought to interfere.
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09-12-2015, 06:37 PM
RE: School dress codes, objectification, admiration. Mostly for women.
(09-12-2015 05:36 PM)julep Wrote:  
(09-12-2015 04:17 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  So no dress codes (school or work) necessary because people shouldn't ever be distracted by sexual impulse/desire?

I don't have a problem at all with gender-neutral dress codes. Dress codes designed equally to avoid distraction for both genders, I can deal with those, too. Dress codes that hold women responsible for "distracting" men and not vice versa are problematic.

My job requires me to be dress in all black to minimize visual distraction, and I don't mind that at all.

However, as most people have learned some level of impulse control by age 5, it's reasonable to expect males in a workplace or a school to be able to control their responses when a woman they find attractive is in the room, which would include returning their attention to the work or the lesson. We expect people to be able to handle some level of distraction and still function capably, or no one would ever be allowed to drive a car or have the TV on while preparing dinner, etc., etc.

Men who are going to be jerks and objectify women are going to do so no matter how much clothing the woman is wearing, and then find a way to make their behavior her fault.

Hmmmm, you quoted Adrianime saying
" people shouldn't ever be distracted by sexual impulse/desire?"
and your response is
"distracting" men "
" it's reasonable to expect males "
" Men who are going to be jerks. "

If there is a negative connotation "people" became exclusively "men"?

Almost as if there was some kind of ideology behind that kind of reasoning....oh,wait.

In fact, in my experience , usually it's women bitching about a proper dress code.

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