School dress codes, objectification, admiration. Mostly for women.
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09-12-2015, 07:29 PM
RE: School dress codes, objectification, admiration. Mostly for women.
(09-12-2015 06:16 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(09-12-2015 05:36 PM)julep Wrote:  I don't have a problem at all with gender-neutral dress codes. Dress codes designed equally to avoid distraction for both genders, I can deal with those, too. Dress codes that hold women responsible for "distracting" men and not vice versa are problematic.

My job requires me to be dress in all black to minimize visual distraction, and I don't mind that at all.
Would you say that a dress code that asks boys to keep their shirts on in school would be for the sake of not distracting others?

I wonder if guys started commonly wearing leggings that showed front bulges and butt curves if that would be considered distracting. I bet it would?

I think both guys and girls can dress in distracting ways. It's usually different though, how a guy distracts vs how a girl does.

I don't think it's different about how guys distract. A good-looking guy will be just as distracting to a female; men's clothes are already designed to maximize sexual attractiveness. (Suits are cut to emphasize shoulders and minimize belly fat, for example.)

We get in trouble when we use the word distract because of the ambiguity involved. One can find something distracting without distraction being the intention of the object--or without the object being distracting to others.

Example 1: A woman picks out a blouse because it's a nice color and goes with her skirt, she likes how she looks in it. A man at the next desk thinks, she must know that color makes her look hot, she's trying to get me to notice her, and get distracted, while another man in the office sees her, notices she looks nice, and continues on with his work.

Example 2: a girl in algebra class has beautiful black hair that she keeps shiny and clean. The boy behind her likes to stare at it. Should she have to hide her hair so that he can focus on algebra, or should he take responsibility--not for his reaction, but for how he deals with that reaction?

I support dress codes (and conduct codes) that realize that distractions can't be eliminated, but instead aim to lower the general distraction level for all. I like it when, as in my son's high school's dress code, sexual distraction isn't the only kind of distraction considered.

Among other things, the dress code at my son's high school prohibits bare feet or unsafe shoes (high heels, example), extremely low cut, tight-fitting, or transparent clothes, bare midriffs, tight-fitting leggings, skirts, dresses or pants that end higher than mid thigh, underwear as outerwear, clothes revealing of underwear, hats/headgear, hooded garments, and clothes with references to drugs, alcohol, guns, or that promote racial or sexual orientation discrimination.

These restrictions apply to all students: boys, girls, straight and gay. If a boy wants to wear a skirt to school, that's okay--but it can't hit higher than mid thigh. Nobody gets to wear spaghetti straps or tank tops. Nobody gets to wear tight leggings. Nobody gets to show excess boob or butt cleavage. Nobody gets to distract with a hateful message on their clothing, either.
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09-12-2015, 07:49 PM
RE: School dress codes, objectification, admiration. Mostly for women.
(09-12-2015 06:37 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(09-12-2015 05:36 PM)julep Wrote:  I don't have a problem at all with gender-neutral dress codes. Dress codes designed equally to avoid distraction for both genders, I can deal with those, too. Dress codes that hold women responsible for "distracting" men and not vice versa are problematic.

My job requires me to be dress in all black to minimize visual distraction, and I don't mind that at all.

However, as most people have learned some level of impulse control by age 5, it's reasonable to expect males in a workplace or a school to be able to control their responses when a woman they find attractive is in the room, which would include returning their attention to the work or the lesson. We expect people to be able to handle some level of distraction and still function capably, or no one would ever be allowed to drive a car or have the TV on while preparing dinner, etc., etc.

Men who are going to be jerks and objectify women are going to do so no matter how much clothing the woman is wearing, and then find a way to make their behavior her fault.

Hmmmm, you quoted Adrianime saying
" people shouldn't ever be distracted by sexual impulse/desire?"
and your response is
"distracting" men "
" it's reasonable to expect males "
" Men who are going to be jerks. "

If there is a negative connotation "people" became exclusively "men"?

Almost as if there was some kind of ideology behind that kind of reasoning....oh,wait.

In fact, in my experience , usually it's women bitching about a proper dress code.

I used men in the examples because the OP was written totally from the point of view of a man looking at women as objects.

Also, if we're gonna quote: "women bitching" reads as though you might have some ideology of your own on display. Not sure what you mean by "proper" dress--is that some kind of code I'm supposed to understand?
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09-12-2015, 07:51 PM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2015 08:24 PM by Anjele.)
RE: School dress codes, objectification, admiration. Mostly for women.
I don't have a problem with school dress codes and am fine with uniforms. Many of the schools around here allow Khaki or black pants and knee length shorts for all students. Polo shirts are worn by all. Some school have certain specific colors for their students.

My oldest granddaughter is ten and has decided to wear a bow in her hair every day. She has a whole rainbow of colors. That's her 'thing'. I am sure others have picked something like that to set them apart.

I think it's a good idea. It makes it easier for the kids to be judged on things other than who can afford the most expensive, trendiest clothes.

That said, I hated wearing a uniform when I went to Catholic school. But the damn things were ugly and not practical. We had to wear a knee length green and white tweed skirt, a green blazer, light colored blouse, there were certain socks and shoes we could wear. A knee length skirt is not the greatest choice in the dead of winter in Iowa. The blazer made it nearly impossible to wear a coat and the blazer itself wasn't warm enough for midwestern winters. During my junior year they decided we could wear slacks made of the same fabric as the skirts but you had to find someone to make them and they couldn't have a fly front - too much like jeans, I suppose. That plan didn't work too well because they were all so hideous that they made the skirt seem like a better choice.

The guys could wear anything except jeans, shorts, or tennis shoes.

I think the uniform styles that I see around here are practical and fair to everyone.

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09-12-2015, 08:03 PM
RE: School dress codes, objectification, admiration. Mostly for women.
(09-12-2015 07:49 PM)julep Wrote:  I used men in the examples because the OP was written totally from the point of view of a man looking at women as objects.

Also, if we're gonna quote: "women bitching" reads as though you might have some ideology of your own on display. Not sure what you mean by "proper" dress--is that some kind of code I'm supposed to understand?
Uhm, no. What the hell? Nowhere in the OP did I even say it was men doing the looking. And I specifically addressed "objectification". If you want to comment on what you think that means, then please do.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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09-12-2015, 09:39 PM
RE: School dress codes, objectification, admiration. Mostly for women.
(09-12-2015 08:03 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(09-12-2015 07:49 PM)julep Wrote:  I used men in the examples because the OP was written totally from the point of view of a man looking at women as objects.

Also, if we're gonna quote: "women bitching" reads as though you might have some ideology of your own on display. Not sure what you mean by "proper" dress--is that some kind of code I'm supposed to understand?
Uhm, no. What the hell? Nowhere in the OP did I even say it was men doing the looking. And I specifically addressed "objectification". If you want to comment on what you think that means, then please do.

Careful, let's not all be gettin' offended just when the conversation's getting interesting Smile

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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09-12-2015, 10:13 PM
RE: School dress codes, objectification, admiration. Mostly for women.
(09-12-2015 07:51 PM)Anjele Wrote:  I think it's a good idea. It makes it easier for the kids to be judged on things other than who can afford the most expensive, trendiest clothes.
But isn't that part of life.
Some people have expensive clothes some don't.

Why the need for a bubble? Can't kids learn for themselves how to deal with that situation rather than creating a false safety net for them?
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09-12-2015, 10:56 PM
RE: School dress codes, objectification, admiration. Mostly for women.
If a woman wears a top, intentionally showing cleavage, should she be offended when somebody gazes at her in admiration?
No.

If a "developed" 14-15 year old girl puts on make-up and wears skin-tight or other revealing clothing so that she looks more or less like what a "Sexy 20 year old" would look like. Should a 25 year old person who found her attractive be shamed? Or feel guilty?
No.

Is it wrong to acknowledge when a woman's body is beautiful? Why or why not?
Like, acknowledge internally? No... But you might want to keep the public announcements to a minimum.

Should girls in school fight to be able to wear as revealing of clothing as is allowed in a mall? If so, is work any different? Why or why not? How is a work dress code more acceptable than a school dress code?
Work and school dress codes seem like generally good ideas, as long as they're gender neutral. A kid/coworker is less likely to do their work when distracted by tits and ass. I also got in shit for wearing an earring at work, which I then regifted right back at that asshole, since women were allowed to wear em. I think he was eventually fired.

Is the fight for the de-sexualization of breasts a worthy cause? Or is it unreasonable to expect societies to change? If breasts are literally arousing to many, how do you de-sexualize them?
There are plenty more interesting parts... I'm not at all a boob guy.

What is objectification? If you admire and find beautiful the female body is that objectification? Or does it need to go a step or two further? Gazing? Staring? Pick-up lines? Harassment? Assault?
I think admiration of a body as a work of art doesn't classify. Nor does admiration of feats of agility, or strength; grace, etc... But to see a body as a means to reach sexual gratification is objectification... Is that a problem? I suppose that's subjective.

Is it body shaming to tell a woman that because people may find her body beautiful and appealing that it should not be fully exposed?
If you're at the beach or home? Yeah, it seems like shaming to me.
If you're at work? No, there are logical reasons that may stem from flawed societal norms, but this isn't the place to battle societies problem areas; put some clothes on.. This goes for everybody

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09-12-2015, 11:24 PM
RE: School dress codes, objectification, admiration. Mostly for women.
(09-12-2015 09:39 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(09-12-2015 08:03 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Uhm, no. What the hell? Nowhere in the OP did I even say it was men doing the looking. And I specifically addressed "objectification". If you want to comment on what you think that means, then please do.

Careful, let's not all be gettin' offended just when the conversation's getting interesting Smile
Sorry, boss.

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09-12-2015, 11:34 PM
RE: School dress codes, objectification, admiration. Mostly for women.
(09-12-2015 11:24 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(09-12-2015 09:39 PM)morondog Wrote:  Careful, let's not all be gettin' offended just when the conversation's getting interesting Smile
Sorry, boss.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-12-2015, 03:28 AM
RE: School dress codes, objectification, admiration. Mostly for women.
(09-12-2015 07:49 PM)julep Wrote:  
(09-12-2015 06:37 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  Hmmmm, you quoted Adrianime saying
" people shouldn't ever be distracted by sexual impulse/desire?"
and your response is
"distracting" men "
" it's reasonable to expect males "
" Men who are going to be jerks. "

If there is a negative connotation "people" became exclusively "men"?

Almost as if there was some kind of ideology behind that kind of reasoning....oh,wait.

In fact, in my experience , usually it's women bitching about a proper dress code.

I used men in the examples because the OP was written totally from the point of view of a man looking at women as objects.

Also, if we're gonna quote: "women bitching" reads as though you might have some ideology of your own on display. Not sure what you mean by "proper" dress--is that some kind of code I'm supposed to understand?

(09-12-2015 08:03 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(09-12-2015 07:49 PM)julep Wrote:  I used men in the examples because the OP was written totally from the point of view of a man looking at women as objects.

Also, if we're gonna quote: "women bitching" reads as though you might have some ideology of your own on display. Not sure what you mean by "proper" dress--is that some kind of code I'm supposed to understand?
Uhm, no. What the hell? Nowhere in the OP did I even say it was men doing the looking. And I specifically addressed "objectification". If you want to comment on what you think that means, then please do.

I believe Adrianime already answered the first part of your response. It is only from your ( biased ) perspective that OP means what you think it means.

The wording that I used ( misogynistic and insulting ) was an attempt to match your biased response but from the opposite perspective exactly in order to show you just how much your point of view ( misandric and insulting ) is not objective and is colored by your ideology .
Partially it worked, you recognized it as a response coming from ideology , you just failed to make the connection with your own response.

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