School shooting at SC Elementary School
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29-09-2016, 01:57 AM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(28-09-2016 04:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-09-2016 03:16 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  You're just going to get ignored or blown off. Ardent gunners are not about responsibility. Drinking Beverage

Piss off. My guns are locked up as are all responsible gun owners' guns.
But, like dog owners, drivers, parents etc. there are two kinds of human - those who do and those who don't give a shit. In the case of guns those who do should be fighting for strict regulation over those who don't to prevent all getting a bad name. One count and you are out for life; or in for a long term.

Same goes for DUTI.

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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29-09-2016, 02:42 AM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(28-09-2016 01:47 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  Just another day in America?

My son's a sophomore in college. Reckoning 270 school-days a year, he's gone to school about 3,500 days and not once has seen a gun there, much less a shooting.
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29-09-2016, 03:44 AM (This post was last modified: 29-09-2016 04:17 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(28-09-2016 03:05 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  
(28-09-2016 02:55 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Not quite...

The kind of monster that illegally gained access to firearms.

Allowed - it's not......

Ah, did I miss something, admit I did not read every word. Was this person actually on the banned list - too young, insane, a criminal... ?

But does every legal owner keep his or her gun in a locker and ammo in a seperate safe place, when not actually in his or her possession, so it can not easily be "borrowed" or stolen?

Or are guns just "tools" to some, like shovels, hammers, carving knives . . . ?


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I'm sure we can all agree that this kid had issues. We can also all agree that if he'd been armed with a knife or hammer, the amount of damage he could have caused would have been far less. Sort of like that crazy knife wielding attack in China, where a dude went crazy and slashed a bunch of people before he was taken down, and yet nobody died. Compare that to the shooting in that gay club in Florida, at the amount of damage an unskilled person with firearms can do? No argument, firearms allow crazy people to do a lot more harm than they could otherwise.


The thing is, I don't really know how we get from where we are to where we want to be, without things getting worse in between.


There are some things that may help, that may not. We live in a country that lionizes the gun, in a way that is quite foreign in other cultures. The problem is at root cultural, and if the Civil Rights Movements is any indication, our ability to legislate culture is limited. Sure, you can tear down "separate but equal" and force people to use the same buses and water fountains, but you can't force people to change their minds. Those of us in the United States live everyday in the aftermath of our inability to legislate culture effectively. For a more contemporary example, look at the disastrous war on drugs. Sure, we legislated warnings onto cigarette packs and curtailed their advertising, but it took a while for the culture to catch up; and the ability of the legislature to stigmatize things like marijuana would be laughably bad if their destructive nonsense weren't so tragic.


Are there smart things that makes sense, such as standardized minimum training requirements for gun ownership, or licensing and insurance, or a sensible and easy to access national registry? How many of those, if implemented, would have stopped this shooting? Quite probably none of them.


Perhaps there should be a moratorium on weapon sales in the US, to stop the influx of more weapon into an already saturated ecosystem? Of course the demand is there, in many ways fueled by fear, the same sort of fear the political right has co-opted for their own benefit; and which they won't stop using until it's no longer politically advantageous for them to do so. The untoward political power of weapon manufactures certainly needs to be curbed, but even that is only part of the larger problem that is the legalized bribery of our political system. Get money out of politics, and you neuter power of General Electric, Lockheed Martin, Wal-Mart, and Smith & Wesson. Once again, the problems are layered, interconnected, and intrinsically cultural. One cannot simply hand wave the problem away with a weapon ban, and hope that solves the problem, because it won't.


How do you reduce the number of weapon in circulation? You have to make them less desirable, and that requires a change in culture. No easy thing to do for a nation that prides itself on it's hard won independence, that still romanticizes the Wild West and our own Civil War. The citizen soldier, our militaristic ideal, is still at heart that of the every man that gains the power to defend their country through training and firearms; the idea that a gun can allow for any citizen to be a solider and defend their country. There's a reason why the United States makes more first-person-shooter games than the rest of the world combined, and why game makers in other countries look elsewhere for inspiration. Those changes aren't going to come when fear politics are still so effective. When gun and ammo sales spike right after massive shootings that gain national attention, there's something fundamentally at odds with the culture itself.






^ Video exploring the differences between western and eastern takes on the gun in games, shared for context. An enlightening watch, even if you're not a gamer, and especially if you live outside the US. ^


How do you get people to stop being afraid? Education helps. Education would help with a lot of thing (like poverty), not just gun violence. But we're still too religiously sensitive to get away with teaching logic and reason in most public education settings, let alone teaching epistemology. Think about that. We don't teach epistemology, arguably one of the most import things you could possibly learn about and become skilled in if you are concerned with gaining factually accurate knowledge, and yet we refuse to teach it below the college level!


It's not that we should do nothing. It's that I honestly think that if we focus on correcting some other fundamentally fucked up parts of our society, I think that the gun violence problem will sort itself out. You want to curb all violence? You focus on education, poverty, and the staggering wealth inequality. You want people buying less guns out of fear? You need them to be less afraid. How do you do that? Once again, education would be my first step. You want to stop emotionally unstable people from hurting themselves and others? My first stop would be investing in the social safety net and reinforcing public access to mental health options and removing the stigma from the use of such services. Want to stop religious wackos from spreading their hatred? Remove or prevent the establishment of religious exemptions for hate speech. Talk candidly about the sources of such violence, instead of taking the bullshit politically correct route of refusing to call a spade a spade.

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29-09-2016, 04:16 AM (This post was last modified: 29-09-2016 04:22 AM by Gloucester.)
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(29-09-2016 02:42 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(28-09-2016 01:47 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  Just another day in America?

My son's a sophomore in college. Reckoning 270 school-days a year, he's gone to school about 3,500 days and not once has seen a gun there, much less a shooting.

I admit that I was thinking of shootings in general. Average of seven minors killed by guns, in accidents and through murder, per day according to some. Not all in schools but all in society.

Are school killings any worse than in the home, the yard, the street, the playfield or anywhere else? Does having no real motive make it worse than being full of hate and beer over a perceived wrong?

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29-09-2016, 04:58 AM
School shooting at SC Elementary School
(28-09-2016 05:25 PM)yakherder Wrote:  If they're locked up how am I supposed to get them to the mall?


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29-09-2016, 05:35 AM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(28-09-2016 06:40 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(28-09-2016 05:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  I'm not defensive; I'm just pointing out that your generalization is stupid.

Explain my generalization, and be less stupid about the random insults, if you possibly can?

Just reread what you posted; it was a simplistic, insulting generalization that seemed to have no useful purpose but to inflame.

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29-09-2016, 05:42 AM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(28-09-2016 06:36 PM)Dom Wrote:  Homeschooled 14 year old kid shot father, then shot people at school.

The gun is not the only interesting thing here, and we have enough gun dominated threads.

So dad homeschools his son, and at age 14 the son murders him and goes to an elementary school to shoot some more.
One wonders what and how the boy was home schooled....

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29-09-2016, 06:13 AM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(28-09-2016 03:05 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  
(28-09-2016 02:55 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Not quite...

The kind of monster that illegally gained access to firearms.

Allowed - it's not......

Ah, did I miss something, admit I did not read every word. Was this person actually on the banned list - too young, insane, a criminal... ?

But does every legal owner keep his or her gun in a locker and ammo in a seperate safe place, when not actually in his or her possession, so it can not easily be "borrowed" or stolen?

Or are guns just "tools" to some, like shovels, hammers, carving knives . . . ?


Minors can't buyy guns.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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29-09-2016, 06:15 AM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(29-09-2016 06:13 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(28-09-2016 03:05 PM)Gloucester Wrote:  Ah, did I miss something, admit I did not read every word. Was this person actually on the banned list - too young, insane, a criminal... ?

But does every legal owner keep his or her gun in a locker and ammo in a seperate safe place, when not actually in his or her possession, so it can not easily be "borrowed" or stolen?

Or are guns just "tools" to some, like shovels, hammers, carving knives . . . ?


Minors can't buyy guns.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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29-09-2016, 07:24 AM
RE: School shooting at SC Elementary School
(29-09-2016 05:35 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-09-2016 06:40 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  Explain my generalization, and be less stupid about the random insults, if you possibly can?

Just reread what you posted; it was a simplistic, insulting generalization that seemed to have no useful purpose but to inflame.
You don't like it, so you think it's terrible. Got it.
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